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Debates
Started by marklewis at 05-18-2006 12:09 AM. Topic has 169 replies.
  
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 05-18-2006, 12:09 AM
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marklewis
Joined on 04-28-2006
Posts 81
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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 Guide To Salvation wrote: | |
Here's a little take home quiz. Are you going to blame this on the Muslims too?
If you must accept Jesus as your Savior in order to be saved (John
14:6), what about the billions of beings that die as fetuses, infants,
and mentally deficient, etc.? For them to accept Jesus would be
impossible. So they are condemned to hell because of conditions over
which they had no control. Deut. 32:4 says God is just, but where is
the justice?
Why are we being punished for Adam's sin? After all, he ate the
forbidden fruit, we didn't. It's his problem, not ours, especially in
light of Deut. 24:16, which says children shall not be punished for the
sins of their fathers.
How can Num. 23:19, which says God doesn't repent, be reconciled
with Ex. 32:14, which clearly says he does?
How can 2 Kings 8:26, which says Ahaziah began to rule at age 22,
be reconciled with 2 Chron. 22:2, which says he was 42?
How can Ex. 33:20, which says no man can see God's face and live, be
squared with Gen. 32:30, which says a man saw God's face and his life
was preserved?
How could Moses have written the first five books in the Bible (the
Pentateuch) when his own death and burial are described in Deut. 34:5-6
("So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab ...
and he buried him in a valley. . . .")?
Did Solomon have 40,000 stalls for his horses (1 Kings 4:26) or 4,000
(2 Chron. 9:25)? Did Solomon's house contain 2,000 baths (1 Kings 7:26)
or 3,000 (2 Chron. 4:5)?
Was Jehoiachin 18 years old when he began to reign in Jerusalem and
did he reign 3 months (2 Kings 24:8), or was he 8 years old and reigned
3 months and 10 days (2 Chron. 36: 9). Did Nebuzaradan come to
Jerusalem on the 7th (2 Kings 25:8) or 10th (Jer. 52:12) day of the 5th
month?
Matt. 27:9-10 quotes a prophecy made by Jeremy the prophet. Yet, no
Bible believer has ever been able to show me where it lies in the Book
of Jeremiah.
We are told salvation is obtained by faith alone (John 3:18,36) "
yet Jesus told a man to follow the Commandments-Matt. 19:16-18 (saving
by works)-if he wanted eternal life.
According to the text there are 29 cities listed in Joshua 15:21-32
(RSV). One need only count them to see that biblical math is not to be
trusted. The total is 36.
Last, in Acts 20:35 Paul told people “to remember the words of the
Lord Jesus, how he said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”
Since Jesus never made such a biblical statement, isn't Paul guilty of
deception?
Isn't Jesus a false prophet since he wrongly predicted in Matt. 12:40
that he would be buried three days and three nights as Jonah was in the
whale three days and three nights? Friday afternoon to early Sunday
morning is only one and a half days.
Jesus' prophecy in John 13:38 (“The *** shall not crow, till thou
[Peter] hast denied me three times”) is false. Mark 14:66-68 shows the
*** crowed after the first denial, not the third.
In 1 Cor. 1: 1 7 ("For Christ sent me [Paul] not to baptize but to
preach the gospel”) Paul said Jesus was wrong when he said in Matt.
28:19 “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them....” So
how could Jesus be the fountain of wisdom?
How could Jesus, whom the New Testament repeatedly refers to as the
son of man, be our savior when this is clearly forestalled by Psalm
146:3 ("Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man in whom
there is no help") and Job 25:6 ("How much less man, that is a worm? and
the son of man, which is a worm")?
Jesus told us to "honor thy father and mother” (Matt. 15:4), but
contradicted his own teaching in Luke 14:26 ("If any man comes to me and
does not hate his father and mother ... he cannot be my disciple").
In John 3:13 ("And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that
came down from heaven, even the Son of man...) Jesus erred because 2
Kings 2:11 (“. . . and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven") shows
Elijah went up earlier.
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The irony in this argument is that if the verses were contradictions, Islam would also be false.
No part of Gods word is wrong. You can quickly look at these verses and there would appear to be contradictions, but there are not. If you took the time to investigate you would see that. God wants you to look into this. He does not want you to learn from men, God wants to teach you on his own. Many things were stated to me that I took for granted as truth. Then I realized that I did not believe them. Then when God showed me them I knew they were the truth.
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05-18-2006, 6:20 AM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| marklewis wrote: | | Guide To Salvation wrote: | | marklewis wrote: | |
To be honest, the best I can do is speculate. I would say that it means he abides in the believers because his message is the same. At the same time, can you tell me what the entire text above is speaking of? Not the Holy Ghost, cause we know he was here at the same time Jesus (pbuh) was. So it wouldn't make sense for Jesus (pbuh) to say he had to leave for the Holy Ghost to come. Looking at the whole thing, I think it would be a good argument to say that a lot of it has to do with the message. The Advocate could be Muhammad (pbuh) and that which will be with them forever is the message (Qur'an) that he brings, and by remembering his message your remember him. 'You know him because he abides in you' is because the Qur'an came to confirm the previous message. If you disagree, then explain to me how it can possibly be the Holy Ghost when we know for a fact that the Holy Ghost was there before and during Jesus (pbuh) lifetime?
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Just the part were it says that the Advocate is with them. How can Muhammad be with them. |
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The verse says that the world doesn't know him, then it says that it does. It can't, therefore be talking of the same essence of this advocate. They don't know him because they've never seen him. but they do know him, because he will come with the same message that already abides in us. Either that or Jesus (pbuh) just contradicted himself by saying that we don't know him, then the very next sentence saying that we do. You seem really hung on this, as if my faith is based on this one biblical passage.
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05-18-2006, 6:36 AM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| marklewis wrote: | | Guide To Salvation wrote: | | marklewis wrote: | |
You still do answer the most important question.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
All of the underlined text are about the same thing (spirit). If this spirit is Muhammad, then you can substitute Muhammads name in all the underlined text.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you Muhammad, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even Muhammad; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for Muhammad dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
This can not be true. To keep the meaning, context and structure of the verse is not possible when Muhammad,s name is substituted. This is what your whole religion is based on. That is what Muhammad said. Not me. This is how the bible gets corrupted.
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
This verse is also the same. The Comforter here is the same as the Comforter in the verses above. Substitute Muhammad.
26But Muhammd, which is Muhammad, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
This obviously reads wierd. It is not possible to insert Muhammad's name here either. But infact that is what Islam teaches. This is what you have taught me.
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You truly have a strange logic. It would read "But the comforter, which is Muhammad (pbuh)...
I've answered this question, and I asked you to show me how it could possibly be the Holy Ghost. Are you trying to avoid this?
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You forgot 16 and 17, your answer was not sufficient and verse 26 states that the Comforter is the Holy Ghost.
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Comforter = Muhammad (pbuh)
Holy Ghost should really be translated to Spirit (look it up if you want)
everything else stays the same.
If the Holy Ghost is the comforter, which he clearly isn't because he's been around before this statement, why isn't he ever called the comforter? Find someone anywhere in the bible he is called the comforter.
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05-18-2006, 6:41 AM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| marklewis wrote: | | Guide To Salvation wrote: | |
Here's a little take home quiz. Are you going to blame this on the Muslims too?
If you must accept Jesus as your Savior in order to be saved (John
14:6), what about the billions of beings that die as fetuses, infants,
and mentally deficient, etc.? For them to accept Jesus would be
impossible. So they are condemned to hell because of conditions over
which they had no control. Deut. 32:4 says God is just, but where is
the justice?
Why are we being punished for Adam's sin? After all, he ate the
forbidden fruit, we didn't. It's his problem, not ours, especially in
light of Deut. 24:16, which says children shall not be punished for the
sins of their fathers.
How can Num. 23:19, which says God doesn't repent, be reconciled
with Ex. 32:14, which clearly says he does?
How can 2 Kings 8:26, which says Ahaziah began to rule at age 22,
be reconciled with 2 Chron. 22:2, which says he was 42?
How can Ex. 33:20, which says no man can see God's face and live, be
squared with Gen. 32:30, which says a man saw God's face and his life
was preserved?
How could Moses have written the first five books in the Bible (the
Pentateuch) when his own death and burial are described in Deut. 34:5-6
("So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab ...
and he buried him in a valley. . . .")?
Did Solomon have 40,000 stalls for his horses (1 Kings 4:26) or 4,000
(2 Chron. 9:25)? Did Solomon's house contain 2,000 baths (1 Kings 7:26)
or 3,000 (2 Chron. 4:5)?
Was Jehoiachin 18 years old when he began to reign in Jerusalem and
did he reign 3 months (2 Kings 24:8), or was he 8 years old and reigned
3 months and 10 days (2 Chron. 36: 9). Did Nebuzaradan come to
Jerusalem on the 7th (2 Kings 25:8) or 10th (Jer. 52:12) day of the 5th
month?
Matt. 27:9-10 quotes a prophecy made by Jeremy the prophet. Yet, no
Bible believer has ever been able to show me where it lies in the Book
of Jeremiah.
We are told salvation is obtained by faith alone (John 3:18,36) "
yet Jesus told a man to follow the Commandments-Matt. 19:16-18 (saving
by works)-if he wanted eternal life.
According to the text there are 29 cities listed in Joshua 15:21-32
(RSV). One need only count them to see that biblical math is not to be
trusted. The total is 36.
Last, in Acts 20:35 Paul told people “to remember the words of the
Lord Jesus, how he said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”
Since Jesus never made such a biblical statement, isn't Paul guilty of
deception?
Isn't Jesus a false prophet since he wrongly predicted in Matt. 12:40
that he would be buried three days and three nights as Jonah was in the
whale three days and three nights? Friday afternoon to early Sunday
morning is only one and a half days.
Jesus' prophecy in John 13:38 (“The *** shall not crow, till thou
[Peter] hast denied me three times”) is false. Mark 14:66-68 shows the
*** crowed after the first denial, not the third.
In 1 Cor. 1: 1 7 ("For Christ sent me [Paul] not to baptize but to
preach the gospel”) Paul said Jesus was wrong when he said in Matt.
28:19 “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them....” So
how could Jesus be the fountain of wisdom?
How could Jesus, whom the New Testament repeatedly refers to as the
son of man, be our savior when this is clearly forestalled by Psalm
146:3 ("Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man in whom
there is no help") and Job 25:6 ("How much less man, that is a worm? and
the son of man, which is a worm")?
Jesus told us to "honor thy father and mother” (Matt. 15:4), but
contradicted his own teaching in Luke 14:26 ("If any man comes to me and
does not hate his father and mother ... he cannot be my disciple").
In John 3:13 ("And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that
came down from heaven, even the Son of man...) Jesus erred because 2
Kings 2:11 (“. . . and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven") shows
Elijah went up earlier.
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The irony in this argument is that if the verses were contradictions, Islam would also be false.
No part of Gods word is wrong. You can quickly look at these verses and there would appear to be contradictions, but there are not. If you took the time to investigate you would see that. God wants you to look into this. He does not want you to learn from men, God wants to teach you on his own. Many things were stated to me that I took for granted as truth. Then I realized that I did not believe them. Then when God showed me them I knew they were the truth.
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Are you seriously giong to try and explain it away like that? Well, why don't you show me what God showed you. Explain them, I'd love to understand. Don't tell me that I have to wait for the Holy Ghost either, if God showed them to you, then you know the answers, so tell them to me.
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05-18-2006, 5:02 PM
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marklewis
Joined on 04-28-2006
Posts 81
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| Guide To Salvation wrote: | | marklewis wrote: | | Guide To Salvation wrote: | |
Here's a little take home quiz. Are you going to blame this on the Muslims too?
If you must accept Jesus as your Savior in order to be saved (John
14:6), what about the billions of beings that die as fetuses, infants,
and mentally deficient, etc.? For them to accept Jesus would be
impossible. So they are condemned to hell because of conditions over
which they had no control. Deut. 32:4 says God is just, but where is
the justice?
Why are we being punished for Adam's sin? After all, he ate the
forbidden fruit, we didn't. It's his problem, not ours, especially in
light of Deut. 24:16, which says children shall not be punished for the
sins of their fathers.
How can Num. 23:19, which says God doesn't repent, be reconciled
with Ex. 32:14, which clearly says he does?
How can 2 Kings 8:26, which says Ahaziah began to rule at age 22,
be reconciled with 2 Chron. 22:2, which says he was 42?
How can Ex. 33:20, which says no man can see God's face and live, be
squared with Gen. 32:30, which says a man saw God's face and his life
was preserved?
How could Moses have written the first five books in the Bible (the
Pentateuch) when his own death and burial are described in Deut. 34:5-6
("So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab ...
and he buried him in a valley. . . .")?
Did Solomon have 40,000 stalls for his horses (1 Kings 4:26) or 4,000
(2 Chron. 9:25)? Did Solomon's house contain 2,000 baths (1 Kings 7:26)
or 3,000 (2 Chron. 4:5)?
Was Jehoiachin 18 years old when he began to reign in Jerusalem and
did he reign 3 months (2 Kings 24:8), or was he 8 years old and reigned
3 months and 10 days (2 Chron. 36: 9). Did Nebuzaradan come to
Jerusalem on the 7th (2 Kings 25:8) or 10th (Jer. 52:12) day of the 5th
month?
Matt. 27:9-10 quotes a prophecy made by Jeremy the prophet. Yet, no
Bible believer has ever been able to show me where it lies in the Book
of Jeremiah.
We are told salvation is obtained by faith alone (John 3:18,36) "
yet Jesus told a man to follow the Commandments-Matt. 19:16-18 (saving
by works)-if he wanted eternal life.
According to the text there are 29 cities listed in Joshua 15:21-32
(RSV). One need only count them to see that biblical math is not to be
trusted. The total is 36.
Last, in Acts 20:35 Paul told people “to remember the words of the
Lord Jesus, how he said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”
Since Jesus never made such a biblical statement, isn't Paul guilty of
deception?
Isn't Jesus a false prophet since he wrongly predicted in Matt. 12:40
that he would be buried three days and three nights as Jonah was in the
whale three days and three nights? Friday afternoon to early Sunday
morning is only one and a half days.
Jesus' prophecy in John 13:38 (“The *** shall not crow, till thou
[Peter] hast denied me three times”) is false. Mark 14:66-68 shows the
*** crowed after the first denial, not the third.
In 1 Cor. 1: 1 7 ("For Christ sent me [Paul] not to baptize but to
preach the gospel”) Paul said Jesus was wrong when he said in Matt.
28:19 “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them....” So
how could Jesus be the fountain of wisdom?
How could Jesus, whom the New Testament repeatedly refers to as the
son of man, be our savior when this is clearly forestalled by Psalm
146:3 ("Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man in whom
there is no help") and Job 25:6 ("How much less man, that is a worm? and
the son of man, which is a worm")?
Jesus told us to "honor thy father and mother” (Matt. 15:4), but
contradicted his own teaching in Luke 14:26 ("If any man comes to me and
does not hate his father and mother ... he cannot be my disciple").
In John 3:13 ("And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that
came down from heaven, even the Son of man...) Jesus erred because 2
Kings 2:11 (“. . . and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven") shows
Elijah went up earlier.
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The irony in this argument is that if the verses were contradictions, Islam would also be false.
No part of Gods word is wrong. You can quickly look at these verses and there would appear to be contradictions, but there are not. If you took the time to investigate you would see that. God wants you to look into this. He does not want you to learn from men, God wants to teach you on his own. Many things were stated to me that I took for granted as truth. Then I realized that I did not believe them. Then when God showed me them I knew they were the truth.
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Are you seriously giong to try and explain it away like that? Well, why don't you show me what God showed you. Explain them, I'd love to understand. Don't tell me that I have to wait for the Holy Ghost either, if God showed them to you, then you know the answers, so tell them to me.
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You misunderstood me. Truth is best understood when experienced. This is what I meant. I read things in the bible I believe to be true but not until I experience the truth does it become real to me. I was saying you should really investigate your arguments. I will be happy to do it for you but I am sure you will not believe what I write. If, on the other hand, you study these for yourself, God will reveal the truth to you. For if you with an earnest heart seek his wisdom, he will give it to you. I will for future reasoning study and provide you with an answer. My intentions were not to evade responding, but hoping you will search for the truth on your own.
God will reveal truths to different people at different times. Understand like this. If all of your arguments are correct and all of mine are incorrect. It would stand to reason that God revealed something to you that he did not reveal to me yet and visa- versa.
You are correct in saying that the Holy Ghost must reveal truths to us, just like the verse we have been discussing. That is a major point Jesus states in our verses. They knew Him and would be in them. This promise was also for all who believe on Jesus.
You say Muhammad reveals the truth to us. What more truth is there than what Jesus taught.
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05-18-2006, 5:10 PM
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marklewis
Joined on 04-28-2006
Posts 81
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| Guide To Salvation wrote: | | marklewis wrote: | | Guide To Salvation wrote: | | marklewis wrote: | |
You still do answer the most important question.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
All of the underlined text are about the same thing (spirit). If this spirit is Muhammad, then you can substitute Muhammads name in all the underlined text.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you Muhammad, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even Muhammad; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for Muhammad dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
This can not be true. To keep the meaning, context and structure of the verse is not possible when Muhammad,s name is substituted. This is what your whole religion is based on. That is what Muhammad said. Not me. This is how the bible gets corrupted.
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
This verse is also the same. The Comforter here is the same as the Comforter in the verses above. Substitute Muhammad.
26But Muhammd, which is Muhammad, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
This obviously reads wierd. It is not possible to insert Muhammad's name here either. But infact that is what Islam teaches. This is what you have taught me.
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You truly have a strange logic. It would read "But the comforter, which is Muhammad (pbuh)...
I've answered this question, and I asked you to show me how it could possibly be the Holy Ghost. Are you trying to avoid this?
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You forgot 16 and 17, your answer was not sufficient and verse 26 states that the Comforter is the Holy Ghost.
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Comforter = Muhammad (pbuh)
Holy Ghost should really be translated to Spirit (look it up if you want)
everything else stays the same.
If the Holy Ghost is the comforter, which he clearly isn't because he's been around before this statement, why isn't he ever called the comforter? Find someone anywhere in the bible he is called the comforter.
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You still forgot 16 and 17. Also, 26 says that the Comforter is the Holy Ghost (Spirit) not Muhammad,where do you get Muhammad from. The Bible is pretty clear here.
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05-18-2006, 5:46 PM
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marklewis
Joined on 04-28-2006
Posts 81
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| Guide To Salvation wrote: | | marklewis wrote: | | Guide To Salvation wrote: | | marklewis wrote: | |
To be honest, the best I can do is speculate. I would say that it means he abides in the believers because his message is the same. At the same time, can you tell me what the entire text above is speaking of? Not the Holy Ghost, cause we know he was here at the same time Jesus (pbuh) was. So it wouldn't make sense for Jesus (pbuh) to say he had to leave for the Holy Ghost to come. Looking at the whole thing, I think it would be a good argument to say that a lot of it has to do with the message. The Advocate could be Muhammad (pbuh) and that which will be with them forever is the message (Qur'an) that he brings, and by remembering his message your remember him. 'You know him because he abides in you' is because the Qur'an came to confirm the previous message. If you disagree, then explain to me how it can possibly be the Holy Ghost when we know for a fact that the Holy Ghost was there before and during Jesus (pbuh) lifetime?
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Just the part were it says that the Advocate is with them. How can Muhammad be with them. |
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The verse says that the world doesn't know him, then it says that it does. It can't, therefore be talking of the same essence of this advocate. They don't know him because they've never seen him. but they do know him, because he will come with the same message that already abides in us. Either that or Jesus (pbuh) just contradicted himself by saying that we don't know him, then the very next sentence saying that we do. You seem really hung on this, as if my faith is based on this one biblical passage.
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The verse does not say that and I don't believe that you believe it says that either. Jesus is talking to the disciples. He tells them that the world will not know the Spirit of truth. Then he lets the disciple know that they allready know the Spirit of Truth. Your faith may not be based on this passage, but Islam is. Muhammad can not be the Comforter in these verses and that is what you said Muhammad said. Without this verse, Islam is not linked to the bible, the Jews or Christ.
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05-18-2006, 8:27 PM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| marklewis wrote: | | Guide To Salvation wrote: | | marklewis wrote: | | Guide To Salvation wrote: | |
Here's a little take home quiz. Are you going to blame this on the Muslims too?
If you must accept Jesus as your Savior in order to be saved (John
14:6), what about the billions of beings that die as fetuses, infants,
and mentally deficient, etc.? For them to accept Jesus would be
impossible. So they are condemned to hell because of conditions over
which they had no control. Deut. 32:4 says God is just, but where is
the justice?
Why are we being punished for Adam's sin? After all, he ate the
forbidden fruit, we didn't. It's his problem, not ours, especially in
light of Deut. 24:16, which says children shall not be punished for the
sins of their fathers.
How can Num. 23:19, which says God doesn't repent, be reconciled
with Ex. 32:14, which clearly says he does?
How can 2 Kings 8:26, which says Ahaziah began to rule at age 22,
be reconciled with 2 Chron. 22:2, which says he was 42?
How can Ex. 33:20, which says no man can see God's face and live, be
squared with Gen. 32:30, which says a man saw God's face and his life
was preserved?
How could Moses have written the first five books in the Bible (the
Pentateuch) when his own death and burial are described in Deut. 34:5-6
("So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab ...
and he buried him in a valley. . . .")?
Did Solomon have 40,000 stalls for his horses (1 Kings 4:26) or 4,000
(2 Chron. 9:25)? Did Solomon's house contain 2,000 baths (1 Kings 7:26)
or 3,000 (2 Chron. 4:5)?
Was Jehoiachin 18 years old when he began to reign in Jerusalem and
did he reign 3 months (2 Kings 24:8), or was he 8 years old and reigned
3 months and 10 days (2 Chron. 36: 9). Did Nebuzaradan come to
Jerusalem on the 7th (2 Kings 25:8) or 10th (Jer. 52:12) day of the 5th
month?
Matt. 27:9-10 quotes a prophecy made by Jeremy the prophet. Yet, no
Bible believer has ever been able to show me where it lies in the Book
of Jeremiah.
We are told salvation is obtained by faith alone (John 3:18,36) "
yet Jesus told a man to follow the Commandments-Matt. 19:16-18 (saving
by works)-if he wanted eternal life.
According to the text there are 29 cities listed in Joshua 15:21-32
(RSV). One need only count them to see that biblical math is not to be
trusted. The total is 36.
Last, in Acts 20:35 Paul told people “to remember the words of the
Lord Jesus, how he said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”
Since Jesus never made such a biblical statement, isn't Paul guilty of
deception?
Isn't Jesus a false prophet since he wrongly predicted in Matt. 12:40
that he would be buried three days and three nights as Jonah was in the
whale three days and three nights? Friday afternoon to early Sunday
morning is only one and a half days.
Jesus' prophecy in John 13:38 (“The *** shall not crow, till thou
[Peter] hast denied me three times”) is false. Mark 14:66-68 shows the
*** crowed after the first denial, not the third.
In 1 Cor. 1: 1 7 ("For Christ sent me [Paul] not to baptize but to
preach the gospel”) Paul said Jesus was wrong when he said in Matt.
28:19 “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them....” So
how could Jesus be the fountain of wisdom?
How could Jesus, whom the New Testament repeatedly refers to as the
son of man, be our savior when this is clearly forestalled by Psalm
146:3 ("Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man in whom
there is no help") and Job 25:6 ("How much less man, that is a worm? and
the son of man, which is a worm")?
Jesus told us to "honor thy father and mother” (Matt. 15:4), but
contradicted his own teaching in Luke 14:26 ("If any man comes to me and
does not hate his father and mother ... he cannot be my disciple").
In John 3:13 ("And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that
came down from heaven, even the Son of man...) Jesus erred because 2
Kings 2:11 (“. . . and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven") shows
Elijah went up earlier.
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The irony in this argument is that if the verses were contradictions, Islam would also be false.
No part of Gods word is wrong. You can quickly look at these verses and there would appear to be contradictions, but there are not. If you took the time to investigate you would see that. God wants you to look into this. He does not want you to learn from men, God wants to teach you on his own. Many things were stated to me that I took for granted as truth. Then I realized that I did not believe them. Then when God showed me them I knew they were the truth.
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Are you seriously giong to try and explain it away like that? Well, why don't you show me what God showed you. Explain them, I'd love to understand. Don't tell me that I have to wait for the Holy Ghost either, if God showed them to you, then you know the answers, so tell them to me.
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You misunderstood me. Truth is best understood when experienced. This is what I meant. I read things in the bible I believe to be true but not until I experience the truth does it become real to me. I was saying you should really investigate your arguments. I will be happy to do it for you but I am sure you will not believe what I write. If, on the other hand, you study these for yourself, God will reveal the truth to you. For if you with an earnest heart seek his wisdom, he will give it to you. I will for future reasoning study and provide you with an answer. My intentions were not to evade responding, but hoping you will search for the truth on your own.
God will reveal truths to different people at different times. Understand like this. If all of your arguments are correct and all of mine are incorrect. It would stand to reason that God revealed something to you that he did not reveal to me yet and visa- versa.
You are correct in saying that the Holy Ghost must reveal truths to us, just like the verse we have been discussing. That is a major point Jesus states in our verses. They knew Him and would be in them. This promise was also for all who believe on Jesus.
You say Muhammad reveals the truth to us. What more truth is there than what Jesus taught.
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Tell me, what exactly did Jesus (pbuh) teach? Before answering, please review these articles I'd written for my site, cause I know where you're going to go. I just want you to consider these:
Jesus And Paul - Contradictions Never Agree
For The Love Of God (original sin)
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05-18-2006, 8:28 PM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| marklewis wrote: | | Guide To Salvation wrote: | | marklewis wrote: | | Guide To Salvation wrote: | | marklewis wrote: | |
To be honest, the best I can do is speculate. I would say that it means he abides in the believers because his message is the same. At the same time, can you tell me what the entire text above is speaking of? Not the Holy Ghost, cause we know he was here at the same time Jesus (pbuh) was. So it wouldn't make sense for Jesus (pbuh) to say he had to leave for the Holy Ghost to come. Looking at the whole thing, I think it would be a good argument to say that a lot of it has to do with the message. The Advocate could be Muhammad (pbuh) and that which will be with them forever is the message (Qur'an) that he brings, and by remembering his message your remember him. 'You know him because he abides in you' is because the Qur'an came to confirm the previous message. If you disagree, then explain to me how it can possibly be the Holy Ghost when we know for a fact that the Holy Ghost was there before and during Jesus (pbuh) lifetime?
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Just the part were it says that the Advocate is with them. How can Muhammad be with them. |
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The verse says that the world doesn't know him, then it says that it does. It can't, therefore be talking of the same essence of this advocate. They don't know him because they've never seen him. but they do know him, because he will come with the same message that already abides in us. Either that or Jesus (pbuh) just contradicted himself by saying that we don't know him, then the very next sentence saying that we do. You seem really hung on this, as if my faith is based on this one biblical passage.
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The verse does not say that and I don't believe that you believe it says that either. Jesus is talking to the disciples. He tells them that the world will not know the Spirit of truth. Then he lets the disciple know that they allready know the Spirit of Truth. Your faith may not be based on this passage, but Islam is. Muhammad can not be the Comforter in these verses and that is what you said Muhammad said. Without this verse, Islam is not linked to the bible, the Jews or Christ.
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Actually this was just one of many. It never one of my favorites to begin with cause I'd never researched it fully. There are many more prophecies of Muhammad (pbuh) in the Bible.
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05-18-2006, 8:34 PM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| marklewis wrote: | | Guide To Salvation wrote: | | marklewis wrote: | | Guide To Salvation wrote: | | marklewis wrote: | |
You still do answer the most important question.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
All of the underlined text are about the same thing (spirit). If this spirit is Muhammad, then you can substitute Muhammads name in all the underlined text.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you Muhammad, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even Muhammad; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for Muhammad dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
This can not be true. To keep the meaning, context and structure of the verse is not possible when Muhammad,s name is substituted. This is what your whole religion is based on. That is what Muhammad said. Not me. This is how the bible gets corrupted.
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
This verse is also the same. The Comforter here is the same as the Comforter in the verses above. Substitute Muhammad.
26But Muhammd, which is Muhammad, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
This obviously reads wierd. It is not possible to insert Muhammad's name here either. But infact that is what Islam teaches. This is what you have taught me.
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You truly have a strange logic. It would read "But the comforter, which is Muhammad (pbuh)...
I've answered this question, and I asked you to show me how it could possibly be the Holy Ghost. Are you trying to avoid this?
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You forgot 16 and 17, your answer was not sufficient and verse 26 states that the Comforter is the Holy Ghost.
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Comforter = Muhammad (pbuh)
Holy Ghost should really be translated to Spirit (look it up if you want)
everything else stays the same.
If the Holy Ghost is the comforter, which he clearly isn't because he's been around before this statement, why isn't he ever called the comforter? Find someone anywhere in the bible he is called the comforter.
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You still forgot 16 and 17. Also, 26 says that the Comforter is the Holy Ghost (Spirit) not Muhammad,where do you get Muhammad from. The Bible is pretty clear here.
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Here is verse 26 from the New revised standard version of the Bible, which is the most faithful since 32 of scholars of the highest eminance, backed by 50 denominations went back to the earliest manuscripts, including new discovries for the translation.
"26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and remind you of all that I have said to you"
So it's not holy ghost, it's holy spirit.
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05-18-2006, 8:35 PM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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Here is a question. Who is the last prophet according to Christianity?
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05-19-2006, 8:12 PM
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marklewis
Joined on 04-28-2006
Posts 81
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| Guide To Salvation wrote: | | marklewis wrote: | | Guide To Salvation wrote: | | marklewis wrote: | | Guide To Salvation wrote: | | marklewis wrote: | |
You still do answer the most important question.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
All of the underlined text are about the same thing (spirit). If this spirit is Muhammad, then you can substitute Muhammads name in all the underlined text.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you Muhammad, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even Muhammad; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for Muhammad dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
This can not be true. To keep the meaning, context and structure of the verse is not possible when Muhammad,s name is substituted. This is what your whole religion is based on. That is what Muhammad said. Not me. This is how the bible gets corrupted.
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
This verse is also the same. The Comforter here is the same as the Comforter in the verses above. Substitute Muhammad.
26But Muhammd, which is Muhammad, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
This obviously reads wierd. It is not possible to insert Muhammad's name here either. But infact that is what Islam teaches. This is what you have taught me.
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You truly have a strange logic. It would read "But the comforter, which is Muhammad (pbuh)...
I've answered this question, and I asked you to show me how it could possibly be the Holy Ghost. Are you trying to avoid this?
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You forgot 16 and 17, your answer was not sufficient and verse 26 states that the Comforter is the Holy Ghost.
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Comforter = Muhammad (pbuh)
Holy Ghost should really be translated to Spirit (look it up if you want)
everything else stays the same.
If the Holy Ghost is the comforter, which he clearly isn't because he's been around before this statement, why isn't he ever called the comforter? Find someone anywhere in the bible he is called the comforter.
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You still forgot 16 and 17. Also, 26 says that the Comforter is the Holy Ghost (Spirit) not Muhammad,where do you get Muhammad from. The Bible is pretty clear here.
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Here is verse 26 from the New revised standard version of the Bible, which is the most faithful since 32 of scholars of the highest eminance, backed by 50 denominations went back to the earliest manuscripts, including new discovries for the translation.
"26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and remind you of all that I have said to you"
So it's not holy ghost, it's holy spirit. |
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It does not matter what you call it. It can not be Muhammad.
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05-19-2006, 8:26 PM
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marklewis
Joined on 04-28-2006
Posts 81
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| Guide To Salvation wrote: | | marklewis wrote: | | Guide To Salvation wrote: | | marklewis wrote: | | Guide To Salvation wrote: | | marklewis wrote: | |
To be honest, the best I can do is speculate. I would say that it means he abides in the believers because his message is the same. At the same time, can you tell me what the entire text above is speaking of? Not the Holy Ghost, cause we know he was here at the same time Jesus (pbuh) was. So it wouldn't make sense for Jesus (pbuh) to say he had to leave for the Holy Ghost to come. Looking at the whole thing, I think it would be a good argument to say that a lot of it has to do with the message. The Advocate could be Muhammad (pbuh) and that which will be with them forever is the message (Qur'an) that he brings, and by remembering his message your remember him. 'You know him because he abides in you' is because the Qur'an came to confirm the previous message. If you disagree, then explain to me how it can possibly be the Holy Ghost when we know for a fact that the Holy Ghost was there before and during Jesus (pbuh) lifetime?
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Just the part were it says that the Advocate is with them. How can Muhammad be with them. |
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The verse says that the world doesn't know him, then it says that it does. It can't, therefore be talking of the same essence of this advocate. They don't know him because they've never seen him. but they do know him, because he will come with the same message that already abides in us. Either that or Jesus (pbuh) just contradicted himself by saying that we don't know him, then the very next sentence saying that we do. You seem really hung on this, as if my faith is based on this one biblical passage.
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The verse does not say that and I don't believe that you believe it says that either. Jesus is talking to the disciples. He tells them that the world will not know the Spirit of truth. Then he lets the disciple know that they allready know the Spirit of Truth. Your faith may not be based on this passage, but Islam is. Muhammad can not be the Comforter in these verses and that is what you said Muhammad said. Without this verse, Islam is not linked to the bible, the Jews or Christ.
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Actually this was just one of many. It never one of my favorites to begin with cause I'd never researched it fully. There are many more prophecies of Muhammad (pbuh) in the Bible. |
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You have a presupostion that Muhammad fullfills this verse. You were taught that by man. Let God teach you who the Comforter is. I know that may sound crazy but It could happen. I know that people are murdered when they deny Islam. That is Islamic law. Jesus warned that we will be persecuted and some killed for belief in Him. By way of comparison, you get killed if you deny Islam. Jesus gives life, Islam takes your life away.
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05-19-2006, 8:32 PM
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marklewis
Joined on 04-28-2006
Posts 81
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| Guide To Salvation wrote: | | marklewis wrote: | | Guide To Salvation wrote: | | marklewis wrote: | | Guide To Salvation wrote: | |
Here's a little take home quiz. Are you going to blame this on the Muslims too?
If you must accept Jesus as your Savior in order to be saved (John
14:6), what about the billions of beings that die as fetuses, infants,
and mentally deficient, etc.? For them to accept Jesus would be
impossible. So they are condemned to hell because of conditions over
which they had no control. Deut. 32:4 says God is just, but where is
the justice?
Why are we being punished for Adam's sin? After all, he ate the
forbidden fruit, we didn't. It's his problem, not ours, especially in
light of Deut. 24:16, which says children shall not be punished for the
sins of their fathers.
How can Num. 23:19, which says God doesn't repent, be reconciled
with Ex. 32:14, which clearly says he does?
How can 2 Kings 8:26, which says Ahaziah began to rule at age 22,
be reconciled with 2 Chron. 22:2, which says he was 42?
How can Ex. 33:20, which says no man can see God's face and live, be
squared with Gen. 32:30, which says a man saw God's face and his life
was preserved?
How could Moses have written the first five books in the Bible (the
Pentateuch) when his own death and burial are described in Deut. 34:5-6
("So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab ...
and he buried him in a valley. . . .")?
Did Solomon have 40,000 stalls for his horses (1 Kings 4:26) or 4,000
(2 Chron. 9:25)? Did Solomon's house contain 2,000 baths (1 Kings 7:26)
or 3,000 (2 Chron. 4:5)?
Was Jehoiachin 18 years old when he began to reign in Jerusalem and
did he reign 3 months (2 Kings 24:8), or was he 8 years old and reigned
3 months and 10 days (2 Chron. 36: 9). Did Nebuzaradan come to
Jerusalem on the 7th (2 Kings 25:8) or 10th (Jer. 52:12) day of the 5th
month?
Matt. 27:9-10 quotes a prophecy made by Jeremy the prophet. Yet, no
Bible believer has ever been able to show me where it lies in the Book
of Jeremiah.
We are told salvation is obtained by faith alone (John 3:18,36) "
yet Jesus told a man to follow the Commandments-Matt. 19:16-18 (saving
by works)-if he wanted eternal life.
According to the text there are 29 cities listed in Joshua 15:21-32
(RSV). One need only count them to see that biblical math is not to be
trusted. The total is 36.
Last, in Acts 20:35 Paul told people “to remember the words of the
Lord Jesus, how he said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”
Since Jesus never made such a biblical statement, isn't Paul guilty of
deception?
Isn't Jesus a false prophet since he wrongly predicted in Matt. 12:40
that he would be buried three days and three nights as Jonah was in the
whale three days and three nights? Friday afternoon to early Sunday
morning is only one and a half days.
Jesus' prophecy in John 13:38 (“The *** shall not crow, till thou
[Peter] hast denied me three times”) is false. Mark 14:66-68 shows the
*** crowed after the first denial, not the third.
In 1 Cor. 1: 1 7 ("For Christ sent me [Paul] not to baptize but to
preach the gospel”) Paul said Jesus was wrong when he said in Matt.
28:19 “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them....” So
how could Jesus be the fountain of wisdom?
How could Jesus, whom the New Testament repeatedly refers to as the
son of man, be our savior when this is clearly forestalled by Psalm
146:3 ("Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man in whom
there is no help") and Job 25:6 ("How much less man, that is a worm? and
the son of man, which is a worm")?
Jesus told us to "honor thy father and mother” (Matt. 15:4), but
contradicted his own teaching in Luke 14:26 ("If any man comes to me and
does not hate his father and mother ... he cannot be my disciple").
In John 3:13 ("And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that
came down from heaven, even the Son of man...) Jesus erred because 2
Kings 2:11 (“. . . and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven") shows
Elijah went up earlier.
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The irony in this argument is that if the verses were contradictions, Islam would also be false.
No part of Gods word is wrong. You can quickly look at these verses and there would appear to be contradictions, but there are not. If you took the time to investigate you would see that. God wants you to look into this. He does not want you to learn from men, God wants to teach you on his own. Many things were stated to me that I took for granted as truth. Then I realized that I did not believe them. Then when God showed me them I knew they were the truth.
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Are you seriously giong to try and explain it away like that? Well, why don't you show me what God showed you. Explain them, I'd love to understand. Don't tell me that I have to wait for the Holy Ghost either, if God showed them to you, then you know the answers, so tell them to me.
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You misunderstood me. Truth is best understood when experienced. This is what I meant. I read things in the bible I believe to be true but not until I experience the truth does it become real to me. I was saying you should really investigate your arguments. I will be happy to do it for you but I am sure you will not believe what I write. If, on the other hand, you study these for yourself, God will reveal the truth to you. For if you with an earnest heart seek his wisdom, he will give it to you. I will for future reasoning study and provide you with an answer. My intentions were not to evade responding, but hoping you will search for the truth on your own.
God will reveal truths to different people at different times. Understand like this. If all of your arguments are correct and all of mine are incorrect. It would stand to reason that God revealed something to you that he did not reveal to me yet and visa- versa.
You are correct in saying that the Holy Ghost must reveal truths to us, just like the verse we have been discussing. That is a major point Jesus states in our verses. They knew Him and would be in them. This promise was also for all who believe on Jesus.
You say Muhammad reveals the truth to us. What more truth is there than what Jesus taught.
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Tell me, what exactly did Jesus (pbuh) teach? Before answering, please review these articles I'd written for my site, cause I know where you're going to go. I just want you to consider these:
Jesus And Paul - Contradictions Never Agree
For The Love Of God (original sin) |
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I read the articles and at face value they seem intelectual. But I don't believe they are origional. Jesus said he was the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father except through me.
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05-20-2006, 5:35 AM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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Mark wrote:
"You have a presupostion that Muhammad fullfills this verse. You were taught that by man. Let God teach you who the Comforter is. I know that may sound crazy but It could happen. I know that people are murdered when they deny Islam. That is Islamic law. Jesus warned that we will be persecuted and some killed for belief in Him. By way of comparison, you get killed if you deny Islam. Jesus gives life, Islam takes your life away."
You were taught the trinity, original sin, the son of God concept by man. Do you? give me names, I'll look them up, who was murdered? Christians were notorios for burning apostates at the stake based on the following verses:
Deuteronomy 13:6If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Deuteronomy 13: 13Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; 14Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; 15Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
Deuteronomy 17:3And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 4And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: 5Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
2 Chronicles 15:13That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
Romans 1:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Keep in mind that Islam is younger than Christianity, and eventually it too will evolve to were certain counties will no longer threaten death to apostates. By the way, unlike the Bible, the Qur'an has no verses that tell you to kill apostates, the aposite is actually true, the verse in chapter two that says 'let there be no compulsion on religion'. America is considered a 'Christian' country, and nobody has taken more life than they have. Look at Iraq, Afghanistan, Kosovo, Korea, Vietnam, Japan (the only country to ever use an atomic bomb! They're still feeling the effects and suffering because of it). Everyone knows that more blood has been spilled in the name of Christianity than any other religion, and probably all others combined. Here is one source: http://www.islamicamagazine.com/content/view/159/59/.
Do researach before accusing, because nobody compares to the violence that Christianity has done.
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