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Debates
Started by Guide To Salvation at 05-20-2006 5:41 AM. Topic has 169 replies.
  
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 05-20-2006, 5:41 AM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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 marklewis wrote: | |
I read the articles and at face value they seem intelectual. But I don't believe they are origional. Jesus said he was the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father except through me. |
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What do you mean you don't believe they are original? I wrote them based on my research. What does Jesus (pbuh) quote have anything to do with anything? Ok, Moses (pbuh) and Abraham (pbuh) could have said the same thing, they're the ones with Gods true message of salvation, and without it, you can't be saved. Moses (pbuh) could have said that to the Jews because without him, they wouldn't have had the message God sent him with.
Jesus (pbuh) was the way, the truth and the life, and that also could have applied to any other messenger. They were chosen by God, so of course they the the way (to God), the Truth (of God) and the life (Which you can attain by following them).
Are you just going to ignore every argument I make against you? You keep addressing the same issues over and over and ignore everything I ask you.
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05-20-2006, 6:18 PM
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marklewis
Joined on 04-28-2006
Posts 81
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| Guide To Salvation wrote: | |
Mark wrote:
"You have a presupostion that Muhammad fullfills this verse. You were taught that by man. Let God teach you who the Comforter is. I know that may sound crazy but It could happen. I know that people are murdered when they deny Islam. That is Islamic law. Jesus warned that we will be persecuted and some killed for belief in Him. By way of comparison, you get killed if you deny Islam. Jesus gives life, Islam takes your life away."
You were taught the trinity, original sin, the son of God concept by man. Do you? give me names, I'll look them up, who was murdered? Christians were notorios for burning apostates at the stake based on the following verses:
Deuteronomy 13:6If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Deuteronomy 13: 13Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; 14Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; 15Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
Deuteronomy 17:3And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 4And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: 5Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
2 Chronicles 15:13That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
Romans 1:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Keep in mind that Islam is younger than Christianity, and eventually it too will evolve to were certain counties will no longer threaten death to apostates. By the way, unlike the Bible, the Qur'an has no verses that tell you to kill apostates, the aposite is actually true, the verse in chapter two that says 'let there be no compulsion on religion'. America is considered a 'Christian' country, and nobody has taken more life than they have. Look at Iraq, Afghanistan, Kosovo, Korea, Vietnam, Japan (the only country to ever use an atomic bomb! They're still feeling the effects and suffering because of it). Everyone knows that more blood has been spilled in the name of Christianity than any other religion, and probably all others combined. Here is one source: http://www.islamicamagazine.com/content/view/159/59/.
Do researach before accusing, because nobody compares to the violence that Christianity has done.
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I do not stand before the Lord with America. I stand before the Lord by myself with Jesus as my advocate. I am not accusing. I am stating a fact. Whether you agree with them is how you determine your loyalty to mans religion.
The bible talks about people who kill and assume they do it for the Lord. That does not make them a Muslim or a Christian. It makes them murderers. The God of the bible has a kingdom. Jesus said this kingdom was not of this world.
People who distort verses in the bible to suit there own personal needs are not followers of the real God. They are liars.
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05-20-2006, 7:39 PM
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marklewis
Joined on 04-28-2006
Posts 81
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| Guide To Salvation wrote: |
| marklewis wrote: | |
I read the articles and at face value they seem intelectual. But I don't believe they are origional. Jesus said he was the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father except through me. |
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What do you mean you don't believe they are original? I wrote them based on my research. What does Jesus (pbuh) quote have anything to do with anything? Ok, Moses (pbuh) and Abraham (pbuh) could have said the same thing, they're the ones with Gods true message of salvation, and without it, you can't be saved. Moses (pbuh) could have said that to the Jews because without him, they wouldn't have had the message God sent him with.
Jesus (pbuh) was the way, the truth and the life, and that also could have applied to any other messenger. They were chosen by God, so of course they the the way (to God), the Truth (of God) and the life (Which you can attain by following them).
Are you just going to ignore every argument I make against you? You keep addressing the same issues over and over and ignore everything I ask you.
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Jesus was talking about himself. You have taken the verse out of context. 2 apples + 2 apples = 4 apples. It does not equal 4 oranges. You have to interpret it for what it means. We could read any book and make it say what we want it to say, but it doesn't change the fact that it has a specific meaning. Here the verse has a specific meaning directed at Jesus. It was not directed at all the prophets. This is how the bible gets corrupted.
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05-20-2006, 8:43 PM
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marklewis
Joined on 04-28-2006
Posts 81
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| Guide To Salvation wrote: | |
About the comforter, here is a video by a former preacher turned Muslim on this topic. It's short, watch it.
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If I took Yusuf Estes' word for it, I would have to say that He is absolutely correct. Although, what he said does not match up with the bible.
Matthew and Luke talk about this.
In Matthew the "Angel of the Lord" visists Joseph in a dream. The "Angel of the Lord" tells Joseph that the baby in his espoused wife's belly is of the Holy Ghost.
In Luke, Gabriel is sent to Zacharias as he performs his duties as a priest. Gabriel is also called the angel of the Lord in these verses. He tell Zacharias that his wife Elizabeth will become pregnant and the gives instructions concerning the child. One was that the child would be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Then further in the chapter Gabriel is sent to Mary. Gabriel tells Mary the Holy Ghost will come upon her and she will give birth to Jesus.
Never does the bible imply that Gabriel is the Holy Ghost. The bible is very clear here as well.
Yusuf Estes is either by accident or intentionally deceiving his audience. Either case, this is how the bible is corrupted, mis-interpretation.
Muhammad can not be the Comforter.
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05-20-2006, 9:15 PM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| marklewis wrote: | | [
I do not stand before the Lord with America. I stand before the Lord by myself with Jesus as my advocate. I am not accusing. I am stating a fact. Whether you agree with them is how you determine your loyalty to mans religion.
The bible talks about people who kill and assume they do it for the Lord. That does not make them a Muslim or a Christian. It makes them murderers. The God of the bible has a kingdom. Jesus said this kingdom was not of this world.
People who distort verses in the bible to suit there own personal needs are not followers of the real God. They are liars.
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You should read your Bible again. Most the verses I listed above were Gods orders to have women and children killed. There are no lies, I've already determined that you've never even read half the Bible, and to say you did, we both know, would be dishonest. Those verses above are orders from God. God also supposedly sent a bear to murder 42 children for making fun of a prophet. What sort of loving God would have children torn to threads for having fun? There are tons of attrocities in the Bible commited by God. No muslim would ever accept those verses, and we know God wouldn't do that. Those are verses we believe were altered, as Jeremiah 8:8 states. If you want specifics, read the "violent verses" in the Bible section of my site.
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05-20-2006, 9:21 PM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| marklewis wrote: | |
Muhammad can not be the Comforter.
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Neither can the holy ghost
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05-20-2006, 9:22 PM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| marklewis wrote: | |
Jesus was talking about himself. You have taken the verse out of context. 2 apples + 2 apples = 4 apples. It does not equal 4 oranges. You have to interpret it for what it means. We could read any book and make it say what we want it to say, but it doesn't change the fact that it has a specific meaning. Here the verse has a specific meaning directed at Jesus. It was not directed at all the prophets. This is how the bible gets corrupted.
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What are you talking about? which verse? I take nothing out of context. The Trintarians take verses out of context to make it fit their beliefs, which the Bible absolutely does not support. They have destroyed the Bible true meaning. Also, what about the errors? The wrong sciences, math, contradictions... What is the reason for those difficulties? That proves corruption.
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05-20-2006, 10:54 PM
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marklewis
Joined on 04-28-2006
Posts 81
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| Guide To Salvation wrote: | | marklewis wrote: | | [
I do not stand before the Lord with America. I stand before the Lord by myself with Jesus as my advocate. I am not accusing. I am stating a fact. Whether you agree with them is how you determine your loyalty to mans religion.
The bible talks about people who kill and assume they do it for the Lord. That does not make them a Muslim or a Christian. It makes them murderers. The God of the bible has a kingdom. Jesus said this kingdom was not of this world.
People who distort verses in the bible to suit there own personal needs are not followers of the real God. They are liars.
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You should read your Bible again. Most the verses I listed above were Gods orders to have women and children killed. There are no lies, I've already determined that you've never even read half the Bible, and to say you did, we both know, would be dishonest. Those verses above are orders from God. God also supposedly sent a bear to murder 42 children for making fun of a prophet. What sort of loving God would have children torn to threads for having fun? There are tons of attrocities in the Bible commited by God. No muslim would ever accept those verses, and we know God wouldn't do that. Those are verses we believe were altered, as Jeremiah 8:8 states. If you want specifics, read the "violent verses" in the Bible section of my site.
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I miss-understood the post. I was talking about man taking verses out of context and using them for his own benefit. That would be a stretch of the truth. Jerehiah 8:8 is previous discussion we had that was also taken out of context.
You are actually raising the question of whether God has the ability to cast judgement on man as He sees fit. I believe he is able. We may not like the outcome, but it is his world. This is another way that the bible is corrupted, taking away from it that leads to a false view of the Lord.
Interjection. We learn that God is a righteous Judge. This is what the fear of the Lord is. Respect. It helps us to be merciful to those who would harm us. It helps us to love those who hate us. It helps us to reason with those who do not know the truth. It makes us thankful that God chose us. It gives me security to know that God is in control and no matter what man does to me, God will ultimately decide righteously. Consider the feelings of the man who was made fun of. They were just children but what if what they were saying cut the man to the soul. What if it hurt him so bad that he wanted to kill himself. Have you ever been made fun of? People can be so cruel. Have you ever heard this. "Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me." That is a lie from the pit of Satans black heart. This is how it should read. "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but they will eventually heal. The words you say never go away and always will I hear." Our brains can not get rid of anything that gets through our scences. Only Jesus can erase the lies told to us by the Devil.
Lets just focus on the verses in the video. They were not stated but he was speaking from Matt:1-1 and Luke:1. If you read it, you will see that Gabriel is not the Holy Spirit. Please read and comment.
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05-22-2006, 5:57 AM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| marklewis wrote: | |
Lets just focus on the verses in the video. They were not stated but he was speaking from Matt:1-1 and Luke:1. If you read it, you will see that Gabriel is not the Holy Spirit. Please read and comment.
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I'd rather not since it is not my argument. Also, we spent much time on something that won't change anything anyway. I believe it is about Muhammad (pbuh), you believe it is about the holy ghost (although you have yet to even attempt to show me how. It's not going to get us anywhere. How about we talk about why we think the Christian Jesus (pbuh) is almost a mirror replica of the Pagan God from before, Osiris-Dionysus? Even the Church fathers admitted this, such as Justin Martyr, Tertullian, and Irenaeus (the man responsible for choosing the gospels in the Bible today.) You can read about Dionysus here: Roots of the Trinity - with comparisons. This section has been updated by the way, so if you read it before, it's been comletely changed.
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05-24-2006, 9:15 PM
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marklewis
Joined on 04-28-2006
Posts 81
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| Guide To Salvation wrote: |
| marklewis wrote: | |
Lets just focus on the verses in the video. They were not stated but he was speaking from Matt:1-1 and Luke:1. If you read it, you will see that Gabriel is not the Holy Spirit. Please read and comment.
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I'd rather not since it is not my argument. Also, we spent much time on something that won't change anything anyway. I believe it is about Muhammad (pbuh), you believe it is about the holy ghost (although you have yet to even attempt to show me how. It's not going to get us anywhere. How about we talk about why we think the Christian Jesus (pbuh) is almost a mirror replica of the Pagan God from before, Osiris-Dionysus? Even the Church fathers admitted this, such as Justin Martyr, Tertullian, and Irenaeus (the man responsible for choosing the gospels in the Bible today.) You can read about Dionysus here: Roots of the Trinity - with comparisons. This section has been updated by the way, so if you read it before, it's been comletely changed. |
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We both believe this Jesus. If you argue against this Jesus, you agrue against Muhammad who also believed in this Jesus. That is about as far as I will go on this one.
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05-24-2006, 9:28 PM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| marklewis wrote: | |
It was your argument, you quoted it to me. I used scripture to show you the truth. Logically, historically and interpretively it can not be Muhammad. If it is not Muhammad, Islam can not be from God. Your religion is based on this.
Whatch the video and them read the verses he is talking about. You will see that the guy in the video is lying. Matthew and Luke.
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My religion is not based on this. Islam existed long before anyone made such a connection. Besides, this is one of over a dozen prophecies that fits Muhammad (pbuh). I still believe it to be about Muhammad (pbuh). Once again, if it is not, then who is it about? Why do you keep dodging this question? I don't care about the video, that is not my argument. I linked you that video before I even watched it cause it was e-mailed to me.
Why does the original Aramaic word translate to Ahmad or Muhammad (pbuh) if it is not talking about him? It is his name in the original language.
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05-24-2006, 9:36 PM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| marklewis wrote: | | Guide To Salvation wrote: |
| marklewis wrote: | |
Lets just focus on the verses in the video. They were not stated but he was speaking from Matt:1-1 and Luke:1. If you read it, you will see that Gabriel is not the Holy Spirit. Please read and comment.
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I'd rather not since it is not my argument. Also, we spent much time on something that won't change anything anyway. I believe it is about Muhammad (pbuh), you believe it is about the holy ghost (although you have yet to even attempt to show me how. It's not going to get us anywhere. How about we talk about why we think the Christian Jesus (pbuh) is almost a mirror replica of the Pagan God from before, Osiris-Dionysus? Even the Church fathers admitted this, such as Justin Martyr, Tertullian, and Irenaeus (the man responsible for choosing the gospels in the Bible today.) You can read about Dionysus here: Roots of the Trinity - with comparisons. This section has been updated by the way, so if you read it before, it's been comletely changed.
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We both believe this Jesus. If you argue against this Jesus, you agrue against Muhammad who also believed in this Jesus. That is about as far as I will go on this one. |
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Actually no, the only thing in common that we believe is that Jesus (pbuh) was born of a virgin. Our Jesus fits none of the below:
-Osiris-Dionysus is God made flesh, the savior and "Son of God."
-His father is God
-He is born in a cave or humble cowshed on December 25 before three Shepard's.
-He offers his followers the chance to be born again through the rites of baptism.
-He miraculously turns water into wine at a marriage ceremony.
-He rides triumphantly into town on a donkey while people wave palm leaves to honor him.
-He dies at Eastertime as a sacrifice for the sins of the world.
-After his death he descends to hell, then on the third day he rises from the dead and ascends to heave in glory.
-His followers await his return as the judge during the Last Days.
-His death and resurrection are celebrated by a ritual meal of bread and wine, which symbolizes his body and blood.
These are all the pagan traditions that the Romans and Paul incorporated into the true Jesus (pbuh) to gain converts.
Our Jesus (pbuh) was a regular human being chosen by God to convey his message to mankind. He raised the dead, cured the blind and so on, but our Jesus (pbuh) never turned water to wine, or died for anyones sin, or descended to hell then rose on the third day, or has the power to Judge, or is celebrated with water and wine, he is not the son of God, and we are not born again through baptism. What is the difference between you worshiping Jesus (pbuh) or Dionysus? You just substituted the name. Basically, and you cannot deny this, because it is historical fact, you worship the same way the pagans did. Osiris-Dionysus, Atis, Buddha and so on, they all existed centuries before Jesus (pbuh). The Jews on the other hand, they worshiped the one true indivisible God, with no son, and no original sin, exactly as the Muslims do today. Why is that? Why do Muslims and Jews believe in the same concepts of God, but the Christians God is much like that of the pagans? This can be looked up in any encylopedia, I'm not making it up. Do an internet search for Osiris-Dionysus, atis, Buddha and so on.
Of course it is as far as you will go on this one, Christians for centuries never had an answer for this. Muhammad (pbuh) believed in Jesus (pbuh) the prophet, not the paganized trinity version that has no biblical support whatsoever. The only place you can find original sin is in the writings of Paul, but he contradicts Jesus (pbuh) and God, so he has absolutely no credibility to anyone of sound reasoning. As for the Trinity, not in the Bible at all.
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