I've challenged Steve Keohane from www.bibleprobe.com to a debate. He refuses, saying his article is his argument. His article is filled with lies. For example, he uses the common anti-islamic verse of the sword, which I clearly refute on my site, using the Qur'an. I've also refuted some of the other arguments in his fictional article. Logically, once a single argument is proven false, the entire thing becomes unreliable. God willing, I will someday find the time to refute all 84 pages of garbage. In the meantime, he keeps with his anti-islam rants and posts, yet he fears to debate me. I will debate him in a neutral setting, such as paltalk if he would like. The topic has to be precise, cause I don't want him using the normal missionary tactic of trying to overwhelm the opponoent with a barriage of topics. We can debate each and every topic he would like, but one at a time.
He constantly boasts on his message board (Which Jesus (pbuh) clearly looks down upon in the Bible), yet he refuses to back it up.
Tarek
Christianity quiz?
It doesn't make scense to me. Jesus answered to people all the time. Many people would ask him to do things that he would do for them. His mother asked him to turn the water into wine and he did. I am not sure that would make him less God.
The Bible says that If I ask, ask and believe and what ever I ask my Father in heaven will do for me. I don't think that makes him less God either. I think that makes him more personal.
When God fullfills a request I give him, It makes me love and believe in him more.
You misread the question, it said if Mary 'told' not 'asked'. As in commanded. If God would be required to do something he was told, then he can't be almighty.
Also, consider this: Jesus supposedly died and was resurrected 3 days later. So he's with God in heaven, while also being God. So he's with himself in heaven now, yet he's only one. And is Mary still his mother? I mean, Mary is the mother of Jesus, so the Catholics must have it right when they use the phrase "mother of God."
Also, those three days that Jesus was dead (before he resurrected himself), was the trinity temporarily a duality? How can a 3rd of God die for 3 days?
Now consider these verses:
Quran: Sura 112. |Purity of Faith"
1.Say, 'He is God the One, 2.God the eternal. 3.He begot no one nor was he begotten. 4. No one is comparable to Him.'
And:
Qur'an 4:171 "People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about God except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary, a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers and do not speak of a 'Trinity' -- stop [this], that is better for you -- God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust."
Now think about this. What if this were truly a verse by God. What if he did want you to desist. What if you were really making him out to be something he is not, something that takes away from him? Don't you find it strange that the Jews never believed he was a Trinity or had a son? also, why didn't any of the Prophets teach this? Shouldn't you research to make sure that this command did not come from God? If it did, what will you say to him when you are being judged?
It's worth thinking about, consider what's at stake.
Would it make you less anything if you were able to make yourself anything?
If I were to die, I would not be able to be alive at the same time. I am different in many aspects, but I can only be one of them at any given time. We can only look at it from our perspective. I don't think I am telling God who he is, He is revealing pieces of himself to me.
Many of the things the Jews did were strange. They actually lived in a time were many miracles were performed and still disobeyed God. Most of us now beg for signs and wonders only to doubt when we receive them.
The Bible says that God will only judge sinners. It also says there is no condemnation for those in Christ. I am not worried about God judging me. I am just sorry that I can't be more like Him.
I have to go for now. I will responed on the Prophets soon.
In Islam, it is impossible for us to be like God, so we strive to be like the Prophets. They are God's example for us. Like Christians believe that Jews disobeyed God, Muslims believe that Christians did the same by incorporating new aspects to the Gods religion. Muslims, like Jews, believe that Original Sin, atonement, Trinity, Begotten son.
The Qur'an is Gods ultimate miracle. It was meant for the world, while all previous revelations were for the Jews. That is why the miracle of the Qur'an is science. Science is something the world can agree on, cause it can be proven. If you interested in learning more about the science that can be found in the Qur'an, along wiht its other miracles, here is a good source:
http://www.bigissueground.com/atheistground/asadi-koranscience.shtml
Muslims, like Jews, believe that Original Sin, atonement, Trinity, Begotten son. I assume this is a typo? Specifically the Trinity part. Also, just prior to that you wrote incorporating new aspects to the Gods? religion. I assume that is a typo as well? Gods?
Another thing I need clarity on is the Prophets. Your talking about the Bible's old testament profits as well as Jesus. If not, please inform me.
I was taught the old testament points toward Jesus. The more of it I read and understand, the more of that fact I see. Not to mention the prophecies that Jesus fullfilled about the Jews messiah.
In the begining of the old testament scriptures, there is God, the word of God, and the Spirit of God.
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
But still, Why wouldn't God be able to limit one aspect of himself and still be allmighty. As a human, people with self control are considered more powerfull at times. Even looked up to and ultimately even worshiped.
You're correct, I meant that Jews and Muslims do not believe in Trinity, Begotten Son, Original sin and atonement. Also, I actually meant "new aspect to God's religion".
The message of all the Prophets, every last one of them was that of "Tawheed" or the oness of God. Not a single Prophet ever taught a Trinity. Not a single Prophet ever taught Original sin, Not one Prophet ever declared God to have a son, Not one Prophet ever taught atonement. That is why Jews don't believe in these things, that is why Muslims don't believe in these things. Who taught these things? Paul, Arius, and the early Roman Church. Genesis does not support the Trinity. The problem is that Christians made every prophecy about Jesus (pbuh). Prophecies are supposed to fulfils themselves. You're not supposed to look back and make Prophecies fit. That is what Chrsitians have done. There are so many so-called prophecies about Jesus(pbuh) that don't even make sense. Research many of the Jewish websites, especially Jews for Judaism. They completely refute that all the Prophecies attributed to Jesus (pbuh) are about Jesus (pbuh).
The verses you described above have nothing to do with Jesus (pbuh), they are strictly about creation. The Bible does not teach that Jesus (pbuh) or the Spirit of God are part of a Trinity or God. Because the Spirit of God is of God, it doesn't mean that it is part of a trinity.
It's like saying "the spirit of that boy moved from one end of the school to the other, motivating the team to victory." It doesn't mean that the boy and his spirit are a duality. They are still only one. Simple test. If you were born in an uninhabited island, and you found a bible, would you conclude that there is a trinity? Don't answer this question with bias, pride, or any preconceived notions. You know the answer, I know that deep down you do.
Something as important as the trinity should be spelled out loud and clear in the Bible, wouldn't you think? Jesus should have told us we was God. Instead, not only did he not tell us that, but he answered those that asked how to earn eternal life by telling them to sell their belongings and keep the law. He didn't say anything about atonement.
Jesus was called Emanuel (God with us.) Also, people worshiped Jesus and he did not stop them. Unlike when the people worshiped Paul, he stopped them. After Jesus raised from the dead, he said he must go, but when he goes, the Spirit would come. This Spirit would lead us into all truth. So initially there was God (the creator) Jesus (the word) and then the Spirit. There were also the prophets in the old testament, but they never claimed to be God. They only claimed to be messengers of God. There were the disciples also, but they never claimed to be God either. As far as the Spirit goes, that comes from God and goes directly into all who accept Him. The Spirit is also refered to as a Him. So the bible is made of these things. Jesus also asked Peter who he thought He was, and Peter answered you are the Christ, the son of the Living God. Jesus told him that The Spirit revealed that to him.
I did not write this I found it on a different website.
Why would Jesus/Isa (pbuh) alone be given by God/Allah SWT the title of Messiah (al-Masih), over eleven times in the Qu’ran? Why would Jesus/Isa (pbuh) alone then be given the title of His Word (Kalimatuhu)?
Jesus/Isa (pbuh) is further called "…a Word from Him (Kalimatim min hus)" (Qu’ran Ali Imran 3:45), and again "…a Word from Allah (Kalimatim minallaahi)" (Qu’ran Ali Imran 3:39). "…(Jesus)Isa is Roh-ul-Lah (The Spirit of Allah), Rasullah (The Messenger of Allah) and Kalimatullah (the Word of Allah)." (Anas bin Malik hal: 72. Qs 4 An Nisaa’ 171). I understand that a human must live in our dimensions. A boy could never be spirit and a boy at the same time. So by saying that God cannot do it, you are actually limiting God. You are saying that the Qur'an is the final truth for all. But the Qur'an says that Jesus is that truth. The bible says that spriritual things are spiritually discerned. So, If I were on a deserted Island without a bible, I would still see Gods attributes. I would see his creation, I would feel his spirit, and I would long for an intimate encounter with him personally. I would never learn about Jesus being on earth if no one ever taught me, but I would imagine what God would be like if He came to earth. I would imagine Jesus. Only because Jesus is the word of God. Since God is the same always, at whatever time He would have come to earth, it would have always been the same Spirit, and the same name, Jesus. That is were I get the trinity. Here o Israel, the Lord our God is one. He is one as God the creator, as God Jesus and as God His Spririt. That is also why I think the Christianity quiz does not make scense. God is not so easily explained. In the bible God says let us make man after our image. And when they sinned, God says that man has become like us. As far as the science. I did not find it compelling. And you forgot one minor detail in the passage about eternal life. The boy was rich. He asked Jesus how to get eternal life, Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,'[d] and 'love your neighbor as yourself."All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?" 21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." You left out Follow Me. The point of this story was about the boys wealth. He loved money more than God. It was specific to that one story not a general description of the key to eternal life. The key in the bible to eternal life is John 3:16 for God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Attonement, Jesus did talk about it. He told them the future concerning himself. Peter actually rebuked him. Jesus actually called Peter Satan. This was when Jesus told the disciples about His death and resurection. He was the spotless lamb. The perfect sacrifice.
"…(Jesus)Isa is Roh-ul-Lah (The Spirit of Allah), Rasullah (The Messenger of Allah) and Kalimatullah (the Word of Allah)." (Anas bin Malik hal: 72. Qs 4 An Nisaa’ 171).
I understand that a human must live in our dimensions. A boy could never be spirit and a boy at the same time. So by saying that God cannot do it, you are actually limiting God. You are saying that the Qur'an is the final truth for all. But the Qur'an says that Jesus is that truth. The bible says that spriritual things are spiritually discerned. So, If I were on a deserted Island without a bible, I would still see Gods attributes. I would see his creation, I would feel his spirit, and I would long for an intimate encounter with him personally. I would never learn about Jesus being on earth if no one ever taught me, but I would imagine what God would be like if He came to earth. I would imagine Jesus. Only because Jesus is the word of God. Since God is the same always, at whatever time He would have come to earth, it would have always been the same Spirit, and the same name, Jesus. That is were I get the trinity. Here o Israel, the Lord our God is one. He is one as God the creator, as God Jesus and as God His Spririt. That is also why I think the Christianity quiz does not make scense. God is not so easily explained.
In the bible God says let us make man after our image. And when they sinned, God says that man has become like us.
As far as the science. I did not find it compelling.
And you forgot one minor detail in the passage about eternal life. The boy was rich. He asked Jesus how to get eternal life, Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,'[d] and 'love your neighbor as yourself."All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." You left out Follow Me.
The point of this story was about the boys wealth. He loved money more than God. It was specific to that one story not a general description of the key to eternal life. The key in the bible to eternal life is John 3:16 for God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
Attonement, Jesus did talk about it. He told them the future concerning himself. Peter actually rebuked him. Jesus actually called Peter Satan. This was when Jesus told the disciples about His death and resurection. He was the spotless lamb. The perfect sacrifice.
First argument: Jesus was never called Emanuel, rather the prophcy of Emmanuel was attributed to Jesus. The word translated as Virgin in that Prophcy was mistranslated, as you can read for yourself:
Isaiah 7:14Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel
From: The Voice: Biblical and Theological Resources for Growing Christians.
ha‘almah, a feminine noun with a definite article, "the young woman." This noun has traditionally been translated as "virgin," but research reveals that more likely it means "a young woman of marriageable age" (i.e., old enough to bear a child) without any specific indication of whether or not she is a virgin. This is reflected in most modern translations.
Second: The greek word translated to Worshipped is "prosekunesan," which is derived from the root word proskuneo which means, "to kiss, like a dog licking his masters hand." Also means, "bow, crouch, crawl, kneel or prostrate." check the Strong's concordance for the meaning to verify this if you wish.
In the bible we also read that people would kneel in front of Jesus (pbuh), but wait, consider these verses:
1 Samuel 25:23-24
"And when Abigail saw David, she hasted, and lighted off the ass, and fell before David on her face, and bowed herself to the ground, And fell at his feet, and said, Upon me, my lord, [upon] me [let this] iniquity [be]: and let thine handmaid, I pray thee, speak in thine audience, and hear the words of thine handmaid."
2 Kings 4:37
"Then she went in, and fell at his (Elisha's) feet, and bowed herself to the ground, and took up her son, and went out."
Genesis 50:18
"And his (Joseph's) brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we [be] thy servants."
2 Samuel 19:18
"And there went over a ferry boat to carry over the king's household, and to do what he thought good. And Shimei the son of Gera fell down before the king, as he was come over Jordan;"
"Worship" is one of those English words which carry a double meaning. The one most popular among most people is "to pray to." This is the meaning that immediately springs into everyone's mind when they read this word. However, "worship" has another meaning. It also means "to respect," "to reverence," or "to adore" (see for example Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, tenth edition). The second meaning is used more frequently in England than, for example, in the United States. However, the first remains the most popular and well known meaning in any English speaking country. Even at that, in Britain it is not at all uncommon even in this age to find the British addressing their nobles as "your worship."
What the translators have done when translating these verse is that they have "technically" translated the word correctly, however, the true meaning of this word is now completely lost.
I will reply to the rest in a seperate post to keep this one from getting too long.
Funny you bring that up. Jesus speaks of a comforter to come, which is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Read for yourself here:
http://www.mostmerciful.com/prophecy.htm
Jesus (pbuh) not once claimed to be God. If he did, show me were. And don't give me assumptions, cause you can make those work both ways.
Those questions you quoted are irrelevent, because the Qur'an makes it clear that Jesus (pbuh) is no more than a messenger, and that there is no such thing as a Trinity. He is the savior cause he was sent to save the Jews. He is called a word from Allah (swt) or the word, because that is essentially what the Prophets are, the mouthpiece for God.
By saying God cannot forgive sins with a sacrifice is limiting God. He created everything in existance, yet he can't forgive sins without a sacrifice. I never said God can't be a trinity, I said he isn't because it doesn't make sense. In the Qur'an, God says he's above having a son. God doesn't need a son, he doesn't need a sacrifice, he needs nothing, we need him. The biggest act of limiting God is the concept of atonement.
As for using "we" and "our": God does the same thing in the Qur'an. In Arabic, as in Hebrew, Us and our signifies a position of power. Like the kings and Queens of England when they speak. You know, like "We have spoken" even though we is just the monarch. It is actually called the Royal "we" and it is still in use today. The Royal "we" or "our" is used in the first person when it spoken by a person in a powerful position. It is part of many languagues, including Arabic, Hebrew, and the English of Kings and Queens in England. The Hebrews always used this expression, and because God is in the ultimate position of power, it would be disrespectful to not address him in a way consistant with such a position.
Another problem, no Christian has access to the original Gospels, and that a causes problems with understanding. For example, Bin Adam means the Son of man in hebrew. Like arabic, all humans are considered Bin Adam. Jesus always referred to himself as son of man to let people know he was human, not God.
Sons of GOd in the Bible: Psalms 2:7, Luke 3:38, 1 Chronicles 18:6, Luke 3:22, Exodus 4:22, Jeremiah 31:9, Romans 8:14, 1 John 3:9-10.
As for the eternal life issue: What does being rich have to do with anything? Are they under a different law? And the point of the story is that the boy wanted to know how to earn eternal life, Jesus (pbuh) basically said, sell all your belongings and give to the poor.
Could you also limit your posts to one topic at a time. It is very difficult to jump around and it limits the amount of detail I can get into with my replies. If possible, post one or two questions or arguments at a time, and eventually we'll get too all your questions, if God so wills.
Thank You
Also, you said the sciences wesn't compelling, these guys thought it was:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Science/scientists.html
These are the top of their field, Keith Moores books are even used at Harvard.
Mr. Lewis, keep in mind that when the Prophets of the bible presented miracles to doubters, they received a smiliar response. Moses and Jesus were called magicians. Their audience too were not compelled by the miracles.
God Bless
Lawrence
Do you agree with the Jews that Jesus was not God, and Do you believe or not believe that he died on the cross and raised from the dead?