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Debates
Started by Guide To Salvation at 04-30-2006 5:44 PM. Topic has 169 replies.
  
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 04-30-2006, 5:44 PM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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The reason I wanted you to follow the link is cause it would take forever to try and explain it myslef. I'll post you the article from the link: (God willing I'll post you some more prophecy's of Muhammad (pbuh) in the next few days.)
JESUS WAS A PROPHET AND
ALSO A PARACLETE SAYS THE BIBLE..
A Christian who has studied the Bible would be proud to admit that the prophecy made by prophet Moses for the coming of "a Prophet like me" (Deut. 18:15) undoubtedly refers to the coming of Jesus Christ. Jesus himself had acknowledged this to be the fact when he said to the enquiring Jews; "Moses wrote of me." (John 5:46). The learned Christians have no problem in admitting the fact that Jesus was "a prophet like his predecessor Moses". Those who deny Jesus was a "Messenger like Moses" are either ignorant of their own Scripture or living in false pride.
In his First Epistle quoted below, apostle John records in explicit language that Jesus Christ the righteous was "a Paraclete".
"My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have a Paraclete with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John. 2:1
Apostle John has also recorded in his Gospel, see the text below, that this righteous Jesus Christ (the Paraclete), will pray to God after his departure, and God will give us "another Paraclete".
"And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you into the age (to come)." John 14:16
The Bible scholars and the evangelic Christians who, after reading these two explicit verses enter into a debate with the Muslim Scholars and INSIST that the PARACLETE is (was) the HOLY SPIRIT, and is (was) NOT the MALE FIGURE that could see, hear and speak like a man; are simply advocating and contesting that the Apostle who had lived with Jesus (is) was TOTALLY MISTAKEN. He made an ERROR in identifying the PARACLETE to be Jesus. In other words, Muslims should REJECT the EPISTLE of John and ACCEPT their opinions to be the UNQUESTIONABLE TRUTH. Would it not be a better idea that they all should send a petition to the editors of the New Testament and see that this erroneous verse 1 Jn. 2:1 is expunged from the Bible!
Note:
We often read the above verse 14:16 ending; "for ever". The fact of the matter is; "into the age" is the literal translation of the original Greek phrase; 'eis ton aiona'.
In the next verse 14:17, John also records, this "another Paraclete" is the "Spirit of Truth" (NOT the Holy Spirit).
A MALE SALVIFIC FIGURE LIKE JESUS
The passage quoted below from the world renowned and distinguished Anchor Bible confirms that the original concept among the noted Christian scholars and populace, for the Paraclete was for a male salvific figure, but that concept was later confused with the "Holy Spirit".
"The word parakletos is peculiar in the NT to the Johnannine literature. In 1 John ii 1 Jesus is a parakletos (not a title), serving as a heavenly intercessor with the Father. ...Christian tradition has identified this figure (Paraclete) as the Holy Spirit, but scholars like Spitta, Delafosse, Windisch, Sasse, Bultmann and Betz have doubted whether this identification is true to the original picture and have suggested that the Paraclete was once an independent salvific figure, later confused with the Holy Spirit." (page 1135).
Criticism and Response: A well known Christian critic, Jochen Katz, has been complaining on his web site "Answering Islam" that I have ignored his remarks; that my introductory note to the above quoted passage from the Anchor Bible gives a false impression that it's author is in agreement with the quoted passage. Since his accusations were based upon a false statement, I did not feel it necessary to respond. Unfortunately, he has made my silence an "Issue of my Integrity".
To mislead his readers, the critic had in one of his remarks, intentionally deleted the opening words from the above passage.
I have re-printed below the deleted words in Red Types;
"The passage quoted below from the world renowned
and distinguished Anchor Bible confirms".
What I had mentioned was that the quoted passage confirms what has been suggested, based upon the suggestions made in the past by the individuals mentioned in the quoted passage. There was no mention of the "author" of the quoted book, to begin with.
THE NEGATION OF "HOLY SPIRIT"
The concept that the Paraclete (comforter, advocate) is the "Holy Spirit" is unequivocally negated by the following verse:
"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Paraclete shall not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." John 16:7
This verse clearly indicates that the coming of the Paraclete was subject to the departure of Jesus. His departure from this world was a *pre-condition* for the arrival of the Paraclete.
We know that the "Holy Spirit" was already present during and before the ministry of Jesus. The Holy Spirit was in existence since the day of the Creation and was hovering upon the surface of the earth (Gen. 1:2). It was also present with the prophets of the Old Testament. The "Holy Spirit" was present "like a dove" at River Jordan when Christ was being Baptized. (Mt. 3:16). Since there is and was only ONE "Holy Spirit", Jesus would be totally mistaken in saying that the HOLY SPIRIT would NOT come not UNLESS he departs. Did not Jesus see the dove that alighted upon him? OR, Jesus did NOT know that the "dove" was the Holy Spirit? Jesus was a RIGHTEOUS Paraclete. When he said; Another Paraclete will come only after my departure, he meant that this Paraclete is not yet here, but will be born after I depart.
"HE" NOT "IT"
"When the Paraclete comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of Truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness of me." John 15:26
This verse further clears the confusion, if there is any. Here the Paraclete is called the "Spirit of Truth" and not the "Holy Spirit". These are two separate terms and two independent entities. The first entity takes the pronoun "he" being a male figure. Whereas, the second one takes the pronoun "it". The Greek word 'pneu'ma' (spirit), is of neutral gender and takes the pronoun "it". Whereas, in almost all the verses referring to Paraclete quoted below, the pronoun used is "he".
"But the Paraclete, the Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." John 14:26
Notes:
1. In the older MS, Codex Syriacus discovered in 1812 on Mount Sinai by Mrs. Agnes S. Lewis (and Mrs. Bensley), the text of John 14:26 reads; "Paraclete, the Spirit"; and not "Paraclete, the Holy Spirit". "The Spirit" is a reference to "the Spirit of Truth" as in 15:26.
2. In 1 John 4:6, the terms "the spirit of truth" and "the spirit of error" are used for the human beings.
3. History records that prophet Muhammad was known for his Truth and Honesty, long before he received the Divine Revelations.
WHAT WILL "HE" DO?
Jesus Christ did indicate that the Paraclete will do certain things in his time. Let us examine if "he", Prophet Muhammad, did those things.
1. "But when he, the Spirit of Truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own initiative, but whatever he hears, he will speak..." Jn. 16:13
Note: The Qur'an is a compilation of the "Divine Revelations" that were received by Prophet Muhammad, over a period of 23 years, through the arch angel Gabriel. The Prophet used to recite whatever he used to hear. His companions used to write down whatever he recited. The Qur'an does not contain the writings or teachings of Prophet Muhammad, as often mentioned by some misinformed authors.
2. "He shall glorify me." John 16:14
Note: The Qur'an glorifies the birth of Jesus through Virgin Mary. It confirms; Jesus was a Messiah, a Messenger of God, the Spirit from God, the Word of God and the Righteous Prophet.
3. "He shall take mine and shall disclose it to you." John. 16:14
Note: Prophet Muhammad did declare himself a Messenger/Prophet of God like Abraham, Moses and Jesus.
4. "He will teach you all things." John 14:26
Note: The Qur'an teaches a way of life. It guides mankind, how to live a pious life socially, politically and spiritually.
5. "He will bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." John. 14:26
Note: The Qur'an speaks about the teachings of Jesus and even quotes him.
6. "He will bear witness of me" John 15:26
Note: The Qur'an attests the miracles performed by Jesus the Messiah. It also mentions one astonishing miracle performed by Jesus that the Gospel writers have not recorded (V:110). The Qur'an acknowledges that these miracles and signs were performed with the leave of Allah, by His righteous Servant and Messiah Jesus. The same is also attested in the Book of Acts 2:22; 3:13 (NASB).
A PROPHET IN THE LAND OF KEDAR
Prophet Isaiah is considered to be one of the major prophets of the Old Testament. In the Book of Isaiah there are several prophecies about the coming of the Messiah. In chapter 42, Isaiah begins with a prophecy for the coming of prophet Jesus. After verse number nine, God declares through Isaiah, the "new things" that are to "spring forth" in the
Land of Kedar.
In the Bible there is only one personality called Kedar. He was the grandson of prophet Abraham, through his son Ishmael (see Gen. 25:13). Kedar's descendants had settled in Paran (Syno-Arabian dessert). In the Rabbinic literature Arabia is called the "Land of Kedar". Prophet Muhammad was a descendant of Kedar.
God declares through Prophet Isaiah;
"Behold, the former things are come to pass, and the new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. `Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth'. Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voices, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains. Let them give glory unto the Lord, and declare His praise in the inlands." Isaiah Chapter 42, Verses 9-12.
God did reveal in the Land of Kedar, through prophet Muhammad - a direct descendant of Kedar, a "New Song" - The Qur'an (Koran). This happens to be the only Scripture to be revealed in the language of the Kedarites. The verses of the Qur'an are recited like a poem. Nearly 1.2 billion Muslims, residing all over the world, recite this "new song" and Glorify Allah, in their daily prayers, five times in a day. The initial Revelation came to prophet Muhammad in a cave of Mount Hira near the city of Mecca. There are several mountains near Mecca. During the annual Islamic Pilgrimage called "Hajj", Muslims from all over the world, assemble in Mecca and shout Glory to the Lord from the top of Mount Arafat. The pilgrims continuously give Glory to Allah on their ways, to and from Mecca.
THE LORD SHALL GO AS "A MIGHTY MAN OF WAR"
"The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies." Isaiah 42:13
In the Old Testament, the God often speaks "I" will do this, or "I" have done this; whereas, He has chosen human beings to do these jobs on His behalf. (e.g. Deut. 32:39ff and 2 Samuel 12:12).
Note: Critic Jochen Katz has ignored the above paragraph while making his remarks.
Prophet Muhammad did go forth as "a mighty man of war" against the Pagan Arabs, the enemies of The Lord. He did stir up jealousy among the most influential and dominating Pagan tribe in Arabia. With a war cry and roar of "Allahu Akbar" ("The God is the Greatest"), the Prophet of Islam did prevail upon the enemies of Lord - the idolaters. No doubt, the Islam was spread with a "war cry", but that was not a cry of a man seeking the personal power. It was a cry of the Lord, who no longer wanted to hold HIS PEACE against HIS ENEMIES. After the victory, Allah bestowed HIS FAVOR upon mankind and gave the Message of "TRUE PEACE" - The Islam. Once a person whole heartedly submit himself or herself to Allah (become a Muslim), the "True Peace" from Allah is bound to enter his or her body, mind and soul. The relationship of that individual with Allah is now direct, having no Church or Papal Authority acting as a vicar or an intermediary.
"I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself, now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once." Verse 14.
The prophets that came before Muhammad had all tried with peaceful missions. But, the concept of sharing God's Glory continued to surface again and again, in one way or other. It was with the war cry, through the descendants of Kedar (Arabs), these sinful practices were destroyed and devoured, inside and outside of Arabia. The spread of Islam was swift, wide spread and at once.
ISLAM TURNS THE DARKNESS INTO LIGHT
"And I will bring the blind by a way they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known; I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things I will do unto them, and not forsake them." Isaiah Chapter 42, Verse 16.
It is an undeniable fact that before the advent of Islam, the pagan Arabs were like the blinds. Their religious and social concepts were crooked. The revelation of this "new song" brought them out of that darkness. Earlier, God had not sent any prophet to these people. By sending Muhammad, God fulfilled His above promise and also the following promise to Abraham;
"And *also* of the son of the bondwoman I will make a nation, because he is thy seed." Genesis 21:13.
Please note the word "also" in above promise. The nations of Judaism and Christianity came out from the descendants of Abraham and Sarah. The nation of Islam came out from the descendants of Abraham and Hagar. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are three children of Abraham by God's Covenants with Abraham.
"They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images; they say to the molten images, 'Ye are our gods.'" Isaiah 42 Verse 17.
History records that Prophet Muhammad did put the pagan idolaters to great shame when he demolished before them, their 365 idols that were installed in Ka'bah (Mecca), the most respected place of pilgrimage in the whole of Arabia. Today, Ka'bah is the Grand Mosque of Islam. Muslims from all over the world face towards Ka'bah while reciting their daily ritual prayers.
To know more on the subject of God's Master Plan for the creation of Islam, please click HERE
To read PART TWO of this article, please click HERE
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04-30-2006, 5:51 PM
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marklewis
Joined on 04-28-2006
Posts 81
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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That is what I have been trying to say. You agree. Jesus knew he couldn't obey the Law. He was working on the Mans heart. Then he told he the true way to God. Through him. Do you believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven?
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04-30-2006, 5:54 PM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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04-30-2006, 5:57 PM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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That is what I have been trying to say. You agree. Jesus knew he couldn't obey the Law. He was working on the Mans heart. Then he told he the true way to God. Through him. Do you believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven?
No. Good words and Gods Mercy get you into heaven. That is what we believe, again, like the Jews. God doesn't need an atonement to forgive, he's almighty, and the creator of everything in existance, to say he needs a sacrifice in order to be able to forgive is taking away from his awsomeness. If God wants to forgive, he simply forgives. Would you like me to send you a Qur'an translation? It would make it so much easier. All the answers are in there. It's actually smaller than the New Testament in length. Jesus (pbuh) was telling him to simply keep the law. He didn't say to have faith in his atonement. What Muslims and Jews do is follow the law and let God's mercy do the rest. It's that simple.
I've got to wrap it up for tonight, but I'll continue tomorrow God willing.
In the meantime, try and read some of the material I've provided you,
Thanks,
Tarek
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04-30-2006, 8:03 PM
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marklewis
Joined on 04-28-2006
Posts 81
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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Well it seems that you can't be sure. If you believe in the Gospels, then you would believe them. Why would you quote and use something that is corrupted. It would do know good. If part of it is corrupted, it would all be no good. My point is, the Qur'an quotes the Gospels or at leaste talks about Jesus. But you say the bible is corrupted. If the Gospels are corrupted, then that would lead one to believe the Qur'an is also corrupted. As far as that article goes, it seems like Muhammad used part of the Bible to lift himself up. Then his followers had to explain away what Muhammad missed by discrediting the other parts of the Bible. Simalar to the Trinity, why would it be so hard for God to explain. Why would he not just say I will send Muhammad to explaing to you the truth. Truth by the way I have not heard from either of you. It seems your expertise lies in discrediting the bible. What about the Qur'an?
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04-30-2006, 8:06 PM
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marklewis
Joined on 04-28-2006
Posts 81
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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 Guide To Salvation wrote: | |
That is what I have been trying to say. You agree. Jesus knew he couldn't obey the Law. He was working on the Mans heart. Then he told he the true way to God. Through him. Do you believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven?
No. Good words and Gods Mercy get you into heaven. That is what we believe, again, like the Jews. God doesn't need an atonement to forgive, he's almighty, and the creator of everything in existance, to say he needs a sacrifice in order to be able to forgive is taking away from his awsomeness. If God wants to forgive, he simply forgives. Would you like me to send you a Qur'an translation? It would make it so much easier. All the answers are in there. It's actually smaller than the New Testament in length. Jesus (pbuh) was telling him to simply keep the law. He didn't say to have faith in his atonement. What Muslims and Jews do is follow the law and let God's mercy do the rest. It's that simple.
I've got to wrap it up for tonight, but I'll continue tomorrow God willing.
In the meantime, try and read some of the material I've provided you,
Thanks,
Tarek |
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But the old testament law is all about atonement. They had to kill all sorts of things to attone for their sin. Why did they stop doing it. No more sacrifices. What was the temple for in the first place? I think the Jews believe in attonement, just not in Jesus. He took away their power, thats why they had him killed.
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04-30-2006, 9:23 PM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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Well it seems that you can't be sure. If you believe in the Gospels, then you would believe them. Why would you quote and use something that is corrupted. It would do know good. If part of it is corrupted, it would all be no good. My point is, the Qur'an quotes the Gospels or at leaste talks about Jesus. But you say the bible is corrupted. If the Gospels are corrupted, then that would lead one to believe the Qur'an is also corrupted. As far as that article goes, it seems like Muhammad used part of the Bible to lift himself up. Then his followers had to explain away what Muhammad missed by discrediting the other parts of the Bible. Simalar to the Trinity, why would it be so hard for God to explain. Why would he not just say I will send Muhammad to explaing to you the truth. Truth by the way I have not heard from either of you. It seems your expertise lies in discrediting the bible. What about the Qur'an?
wrong. The Qur'an makes it clear that every new scripture is meant to confirm that which was revealed before. The Qur'an says God is not a trinity, he doesn't have a son, Jesus (pbuh) was a prophet of God... It corrects that which was added and corrupted. Again, if you'd read the Qur'an, you would understand this. You can't review a book you never read Mr. Lewis.
And the Quran says the Torah was sent to Moses (pbuh), the Psalms to David (pbuh) and the Gospels to Jesus (pbuh). This means all the letters of Paul are not from God. Paul never knew Jesus (pbuh) anyway and his teachings varied from what Jesus (pbuh) taught. The Gospels themselves don't conflict the Qur'an much, if at all. The Gospels most certainly don't teach a trinity. Christians were pretty much programmed to believe the Gospels teach the trinity, but there isn'ta single verse that does so. They use a combination of verses taken out of context to try and reassure themselves. Also, the Gospels we have today may not even be genuine. For one, they are copies of copies. Second, of the thousands of manuscripts that remain, no two are exactly alike, and thirdly, nobody even knows who really wrote them. They've been attributed to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, but for all we know they could have been written by Steve, Alan, Joey, and Eddie. That's why most bibles use the "according to" before listing the supposed author. Go to Amazon and do a search for these books: "Who Wrote the Bible", "Who Wrote the Gospels", "Who Wrote the New Testament", "The Five Gospels, What Did Jesus Really Say", "The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You To Read" just to name a few. They present pretty strong arguments on this matter. The Qur'an is talking about the original, unchanged scriptures that were sent to Moses (pbuh), David (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh).
Also, read Jeremiah 8:8 in your bible and explain to me what it could mean.
Tarek
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04-30-2006, 9:31 PM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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You wrote: But the old testament law is all about atonement. They had to kill all sorts of things to attone for their sin. Why did they stop doing it. No more sacrifices. What was the temple for in the first place? I think the Jews believe in attonement, just not in Jesus. He took away their power, thats why they had him killed.
This is what Jews believe, it is from a Jewish website:
from: http://whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation05.html
A FULL EXPLANATION... The Christian concept of Original Sin is that since Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, all human beings are born not only with a tendency to sin, but they are also born with the guilt of Adam and Eve, and for this guilt, all human beings die (see I Corinthians 15:21-22). In other words, Adam and Eve brought death into the world as a result of their sin, and because of this sin, all human beings die.
And from: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/qorbanot.html
How do Jews obtain forgiveness without sacrifices?
Forgiveness is obtained through repentance, prayer and good deeds.
In Jewish practice, prayer has taken the place of sacrifices. In accordance with the words of Hosea, we render instead of bullocks the offering of our lips (Hosea 14:3) (please note: the KJV translates this somewhat differently). Our prayer services are in many ways designed to parallel the sacrificial practices. For example, we have an extra service on shabbat, to parallel the extra shabbat offering. For more information about this, see Jewish Liturgy.
It is important to note that in Judaism, sacrifice was never the exclusive means of obtaining forgiveness, was not in and of itself sufficient to obtain forgiveness, and in certain circumstances was not even effective to obtain forgiveness. This will be discussed further below.
Notice, it says "Forgiveness is obtained through repentance, prayer and good deeds. " just like Muslims. Why did this change with Christianity? The Jews most certainly received more Prophets than any other people, and this is what they were taught. Muhammad (pbuh) also taught this.
Tarek
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04-30-2006, 11:12 PM
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marklewis
Joined on 04-28-2006
Posts 81
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| marklewis wrote: | |
The Lord sent Jesus because the sacrifices could never do what he did. It changed because the prophets all point to Jesus. He didn't come to do away with the Law but to fullfill it.I really don't think we are going to get anywhere. You are not going to convince me that the bible is wrong or corrupted. All of your sources seem to be anti-christian and I have never met them. Also, all you can do is try and refute the bible. Yet you site it as a source as well. Many Christian demomination exist because of this. I think we would both agree that just because the site the bible doesn't mean the site truth. It doesn't make scence to me. Hence my very first question, what is the Christianity quiz about. I don't think we really ever got any clarity on that issue. One because you believe what Jesus said on some issues but deny the ones that contradict the Muslim faith. Your arguments are compelling but I don't believe them to be genuine. \
So on that note, let us begin a new series of thoughts. I not only believe the Bible on what I have read, but by how it has helped me. I do not believe there to be any other truth in the world. The bible wants us to worship the Lord. Then when we die, we go to be with the Lord forever. What does the Qur'an promise to all who follow it?
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I found a promise of the Qur'an: "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not the transgressors" (2:190).
The God of the bible loves everyone. It is not his will that any should perish but all should have eternal life. What do you make of this, if Islam is a peaceful religion. The God of Islam actually does not love some of us he created?
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05-01-2006, 6:54 AM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| marklewis wrote: | | marklewis wrote: | |
I found a promise of the Qur'an: "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not the transgressors" (2:190).
The God of the bible loves everyone. It is not his will that any should perish but all should have eternal life. What do you make of this, if Islam is a peaceful religion. The God of Islam actually does not love some of us he created?
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Ok, first of all, that is not a promise, it is a command. It is a command of self defense. God is telling us to fight those that fight us, in other words, defend ourselves. As for the God of the Bible? Consider these verses:
Death of Women, Children, Infants, and Unborn babies.
Numbers 31:17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Joshua 10:28And that day Joshua took Makkedah, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof he utterly destroyed, them, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain: and he did to the king of Makkedah as he did unto the king of Jericho. 29Then Joshua passed from Makkedah, and all Israel with him, unto Libnah, and fought against Libnah: 30And the LORD delivered it also, and the king thereof, into the hand of Israel; and he smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain in it; but did unto the king thereof as he did unto the king of Jericho.31And Joshua passed from Libnah, and all Israel with him, unto Lachish, and encamped against it, and fought against it: 32And the LORD delivered Lachish into the hand of Israel, which took it on the second day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein, according to all that he had done to Libnah.
2 Kings 2:23And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
2 Kings 15:16Then Menahem smote Tiphsah, and all that were therein, and the coasts thereof from Tirzah: because they opened not to him, therefore he smote it; and all the women therein that were with child he ripped up.
Psalms 137:9Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
Psalms 137:9Happy is the one who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks. (NLT)
Ezekial 9: 5And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: 6Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house. 7And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
Hosea 9:16Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.
Hosea 13:16Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
Punishment for cursing parents (Death):
Exodus 21:15And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
Exodus 21:17And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
Deuteronomy 21:18If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 19Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Matthew 15:1Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, 2Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? 4For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Punishment For Apostates (Death):
Deuteronomy 13:6If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Deuteronomy 13: 13Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; 14Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; 15Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
Deuteronomy 17:3And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 4And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: 5Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
2 Chronicles 15:13That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
Romans 1:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Punishment for Psychics (Death):
Leviticus 20: 27A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
Punishment for Rapists (or Rape Victims, You Decide):
Deuteronomy 22:28If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
Deuteronomy 22:28 If a man meets a virgin who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are caught in the act, 29the man who lay with her shall give fifty shekels of silver to the young woman’s father, and she shall become his wife. Because he violated her he shall not be permitted to divorce her as long as he lives. (NRSV)
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05-01-2006, 7:08 AM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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Deut 1:27 And ye murmured in your tents, and said, Because the LORD hated us, he hath brought us forth out of the land of Egypt, to deliver us into the hand of the Amorites, to destroy us.
Deut 9:28 Lest the land whence thou broughtest us out say, Because the LORD was not able to bring them into the land which he promised them, and because he hated them, he hath brought them out to slay them in the wilderness.
Psalm5: (6) You shall destroy those speaking lies; Jehovah will despise the man of blood and deceit.
Proverbs 3: (32) For the perverse one [is] hateful to Jehovah, but His intimacy [is] with the righteous.
Proverbs 11: (20) Hateful to Jehovah [are] the perverse hearted, but His delight [is] the upright in way.
Proverbs 16: (5) Everyone proud in heart [is] disgusting to Jehovah; [though] hand [join] in hand he shall not be innocent.
Romans 9: (6) Not, however, that God's Word has failed. For not all those of Israel [are] Israel, (7) nor because they are Abraham's seed are all children, but "In Isaac a Seed shall be called to you." (8) That is: Not the children of flesh [are] children of God, but the children of the promise [are] counted for a seed. (9) For the Word of promise [is] this, "According to this time I will come, and a son will be to Sarah." (10) And not only so, but also Rebekah conceiving of one, our father Isaac, (11) for [the children] not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of the [One] calling, (12) it was said to her, "The greater shall serve the lesser;" (13) even as it has been written, "I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau."
Notice, here God hated Esau before he was even born! Poor Esau never even had a chance to prove himself, is that what love is? There are many more. God of in the Qur'an doesn't love all the same people that God in the bible (The Torah, the book of the Jews especially) does. Why is the Qur'an so consistant with Judaism, but Christianity is wrong? Is it us that went off course, or is it Christiaintiy? It's the Christians that have changed the religion so much, not Muslims. We remained consistant, Christian all of a sudden said that God is a trinity, there is original sin, God has a son, their is atonement, while Muslims and Jews deny this and have the same exact idea of God.
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05-01-2006, 7:22 AM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| marklewis wrote: | |
So on that note, let us begin a new series of thoughts. I not only believe the Bible on what I have read, but by how it has helped me. I do not believe there to be any other truth in the world. The bible wants us to worship the Lord. Then when we die, we go to be with the Lord forever. What does the Qur'an promise to all who follow it?
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The Qur'an wants us to Worship God then go be with him forever also. It promises us heaven. And unlike Christianity, those before us (The Jews that were loyal to God, the Christians that were loyal to God and followed the true teachings of Jesus (pbuh), not a trinity, all go to heaven also.) Get one of those bibles with the red lettering that indicated the words of Jesus (pbuh) and show me where it says, in red letters, that Jesus is God. The entire Bible doesn't say it, but I would like for you to show me where Jesus (pbuh) said it, because he was the one chosen by God, not anyone else in the NT, not Paul, just Jesus (pbuh)
Qur'an 5:69 "69. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
According to Christianity, the only ones that can be saved are the ones that have faith and believe in his work on the cross, the very definition of Christianity. So, only Christians go to Heaven according to Chrisitianity. Which is more fair? Islam does not punish those that didn't receive a messenger, nor those before Muhammad (pbuh), because that was the role of the Prophets before, to save and lead to Gods path.
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