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Debates
Started by marklewis at 05-01-2006 11:49 AM. Topic has 169 replies.
  
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 05-01-2006, 11:49 AM
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marklewis
Joined on 04-28-2006
Posts 81
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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 Guide To Salvation wrote: |
Deut 1:27 And ye murmured in your tents, and said, Because the LORD hated us, he hath brought us forth out of the land of Egypt, to deliver us into the hand of the Amorites, to destroy us.
Deut 9:28 Lest the land whence thou broughtest us out say, Because the LORD was not able to bring them into the land which he promised them, and because he hated them, he hath brought them out to slay them in the wilderness.
Psalm5: (6) You shall destroy those speaking lies; Jehovah will despise the man of blood and deceit.
Proverbs 3: (32) For the perverse one [is] hateful to Jehovah, but His intimacy [is] with the righteous.
Proverbs 11: (20) Hateful to Jehovah [are] the perverse hearted, but His delight [is] the upright in way.
Proverbs 16: (5) Everyone proud in heart [is] disgusting to Jehovah; [though] hand [join] in hand he shall not be innocent.
Romans 9: (6) Not, however, that God's Word has failed. For not all those of Israel [are] Israel, (7) nor because they are Abraham's seed are all children, but "In Isaac a Seed shall be called to you." (8) That is: Not the children of flesh [are] children of God, but the children of the promise [are] counted for a seed. (9) For the Word of promise [is] this, "According to this time I will come, and a son will be to Sarah." (10) And not only so, but also Rebekah conceiving of one, our father Isaac, (11) for [the children] not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of the [One] calling, (12) it was said to her, "The greater shall serve the lesser;" (13) even as it has been written, "I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau."
Notice, here God hated Esau before he was even born! Poor Esau never even had a chance to prove himself, is that what love is? There are many more. God of in the Qur'an doesn't love all the same people that God in the bible (The Torah, the book of the Jews especially) does. Why is the Qur'an so consistant with Judaism, but Christianity is wrong? Is it us that went off course, or is it Christiaintiy? It's the Christians that have changed the religion so much, not Muslims. We remained consistant, Christian all of a sudden said that God is a trinity, there is original sin, God has a son, their is atonement, while Muslims and Jews deny this and have the same exact idea of God.
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The sin not the sinner.
As far as Esau goes, I believe this is part of the bible that the Muslims follow? So if it is, that is the same God you serve, and now you have just doubted his love for his people. The bible does not state that God hated Esau before he was born. God said The elder would serve the younger. Now God does hate sin and that is what Esau did when he sold his birthright. That is what the Lord hates, the sin not the sinner. Keep in mind that God did bless Esau, still showing his love for him even when he was a sinner. Just like the bible says, for God shows his love for us in this. Even when we were still sinners He died for us. From our perspective, How could you as a human hate something you created, you would hate what they did not them.
Anyway, who does the God of the Qur'an love? For that matter who can be saved through the Qur'an?
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05-01-2006, 12:19 PM
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Frank Rodriguez
Joined on 05-01-2006
Posts 8
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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MarkLewis, there is no way of convincing Tarek, he's got a good heart.. I've read his article in the "home" calling out for peace.. but they dont understand Christianity... Jesus said "whoever believes in me shall have eternal life"... ... and I believe in Jesus.. I believe he is the son of God.. and I believe we will come again... very soon
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05-01-2006, 3:30 PM
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marklewis
Joined on 04-28-2006
Posts 81
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| Guide To Salvation wrote: | | marklewis wrote: | | marklewis wrote: | |
I found a promise of the Qur'an: "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not the transgressors" (2:190).
The God of the bible loves everyone. It is not his will that any should perish but all should have eternal life. What do you make of this, if Islam is a peaceful religion. The God of Islam actually does not love some of us he created?
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Ok, first of all, that is not a promise, it is a command. It is a command of self defense. God is telling us to fight those that fight us, in other words, defend ourselves. As for the God of the Bible? Consider these verses:
Death of Women, Children, Infants, and Unborn babies.
Numbers 31:17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Joshua 10:28And that day Joshua took Makkedah, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof he utterly destroyed, them, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain: and he did to the king of Makkedah as he did unto the king of Jericho. 29Then Joshua passed from Makkedah, and all Israel with him, unto Libnah, and fought against Libnah: 30And the LORD delivered it also, and the king thereof, into the hand of Israel; and he smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain in it; but did unto the king thereof as he did unto the king of Jericho.31And Joshua passed from Libnah, and all Israel with him, unto Lachish, and encamped against it, and fought against it: 32And the LORD delivered Lachish into the hand of Israel, which took it on the second day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein, according to all that he had done to Libnah.
2 Kings 2:23And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
2 Kings 15:16Then Menahem smote Tiphsah, and all that were therein, and the coasts thereof from Tirzah: because they opened not to him, therefore he smote it; and all the women therein that were with child he ripped up.
Psalms 137:9Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
Psalms 137:9Happy is the one who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks. (NLT)
Ezekial 9: 5And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: 6Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house. 7And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
Hosea 9:16Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.
Hosea 13:16Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
Punishment for cursing parents (Death):
Exodus 21:15And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
Exodus 21:17And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
Deuteronomy 21:18If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 19Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Matthew 15:1Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, 2Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? 4For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Punishment For Apostates (Death):
Deuteronomy 13:6If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Deuteronomy 13: 13Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; 14Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; 15Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
Deuteronomy 17:3And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 4And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: 5Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
2 Chronicles 15:13That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
Romans 1:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Punishment for Psychics (Death):
Leviticus 20: 27A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
Punishment for Rapists (or Rape Victims, You Decide):
Deuteronomy 22:28If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
Deuteronomy 22:28 If a man meets a virgin who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are caught in the act, 29the man who lay with her shall give fifty shekels of silver to the young woman’s father, and she shall become his wife. Because he violated her he shall not be permitted to divorce her as long as he lives. (NRSV)
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Now this is the part of the bible that Muslims believe in right? These are the Laws written prior to Jesus comming. The Lord delt with the world in a different way then. Then Jesus came and in the Gospels said to pray for those who persecute you do good to those who harm you. I believe the Muslims believe in this part of the bible also. why would Muhammad contradict what Jesus said by telling Muslims to do this? If in fact you do believe in this part of the bible.
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05-01-2006, 3:37 PM
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marklewis
Joined on 04-28-2006
Posts 81
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| marklewis wrote: | | Guide To Salvation wrote: | | marklewis wrote: | | marklewis wrote: | |
I found a promise of the Qur'an: "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not the transgressors" (2:190).
The God of the bible loves everyone. It is not his will that any should perish but all should have eternal life. What do you make of this, if Islam is a peaceful religion. The God of Islam actually does not love some of us he created?
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Ok, first of all, that is not a promise, it is a command. It is a command of self defense. God is telling us to fight those that fight us, in other words, defend ourselves. As for the God of the Bible? Consider these verses:
Death of Women, Children, Infants, and Unborn babies.
Numbers 31:17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Joshua 10:28And that day Joshua took Makkedah, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof he utterly destroyed, them, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain: and he did to the king of Makkedah as he did unto the king of Jericho. 29Then Joshua passed from Makkedah, and all Israel with him, unto Libnah, and fought against Libnah: 30And the LORD delivered it also, and the king thereof, into the hand of Israel; and he smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain in it; but did unto the king thereof as he did unto the king of Jericho.31And Joshua passed from Libnah, and all Israel with him, unto Lachish, and encamped against it, and fought against it: 32And the LORD delivered Lachish into the hand of Israel, which took it on the second day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein, according to all that he had done to Libnah.
2 Kings 2:23And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
2 Kings 15:16Then Menahem smote Tiphsah, and all that were therein, and the coasts thereof from Tirzah: because they opened not to him, therefore he smote it; and all the women therein that were with child he ripped up.
Psalms 137:9Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
Psalms 137:9Happy is the one who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks. (NLT)
Ezekial 9: 5And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: 6Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house. 7And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
Hosea 9:16Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.
Hosea 13:16Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
Punishment for cursing parents (Death):
Exodus 21:15And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
Exodus 21:17And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
Deuteronomy 21:18If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 19Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Matthew 15:1Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, 2Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? 4For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Punishment For Apostates (Death):
Deuteronomy 13:6If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Deuteronomy 13: 13Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; 14Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; 15Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
Deuteronomy 17:3And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 4And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: 5Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
2 Chronicles 15:13That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
Romans 1:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Punishment for Psychics (Death):
Leviticus 20: 27A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
Punishment for Rapists (or Rape Victims, You Decide):
Deuteronomy 22:28If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
Deuteronomy 22:28 If a man meets a virgin who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are caught in the act, 29the man who lay with her shall give fifty shekels of silver to the young woman’s father, and she shall become his wife. Because he violated her he shall not be permitted to divorce her as long as he lives. (NRSV)
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Now this is the part of the bible that Muslims believe in right? These are the Laws written prior to Jesus comming. The Lord delt with the world in a different way then. Then Jesus came and in the Gospels said to pray for those who persecute you do good to those who harm you. I believe the Muslims believe in this part of the bible also. why would Muhammad contradict what Jesus said by telling Muslims to do this? If in fact you do believe in this part of the bible. |
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Also, The punishment for any sin is death. That is why we all die. Unless you have a different explanation for that?
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05-01-2006, 3:59 PM
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marklewis
Joined on 04-28-2006
Posts 81
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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I just read this off of another site. Is this indeed what the Qur'an says?
Islam both allows and forbids murder and violence, depending on who is the recipient of the act.
Allowed:
- "Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme." (Koran 8:37)
- The Koran instructs not to make friendship with Jews and Christians (Koran 5:51) but to war against them: "When the Sacred Months are over, kill those who ascribe partners to God wheresoever ye find them; seize them, encompass them, and ambush them; then if they repent and observe prayer and pay the alms, let them go their way (Koran 4:5). "Fight against those who believe not in God nor in the Last Day, who... refuse allegiance to the True Faith from among those who have received the Book, until they humbly pay tribute out of hand." (Koran 9:29) Note: These verses distinguish between warfare against pagans, and against Jews and Christians.[17]
- "...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Koran 2:191); "fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (Koran 9:5); "murder them and treat them harshly" (Koran 9:123).
- "Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin." (Koran 69:30-37)
- "Strike off the heads of the disbelievers"; and after making a "wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives" (Koran 47:4).
- "Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers"; "smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them" (Koran 8:12; cp. 8:60).
- "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell - an evil refuge indeed" (Koran 9:73).
- "slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace..." (Koran 5:34).
- "for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods" (Koran 22:19-22)
Jesus tells us to pray for our enemies because they are going to hell. It reads as if Muslims are supposed to send them there.
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05-01-2006, 4:04 PM
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marklewis
Joined on 04-28-2006
Posts 81
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| marklewis wrote: | |
I just read this off of another site. Is this indeed what the Qur'an says?
Islam both allows and forbids murder and violence, depending on who is the recipient of the act.
Allowed:
- "Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme." (Koran 8:37)
- The Koran instructs not to make friendship with Jews and Christians (Koran 5:51) but to war against them: "When the Sacred Months are over, kill those who ascribe partners to God wheresoever ye find them; seize them, encompass them, and ambush them; then if they repent and observe prayer and pay the alms, let them go their way (Koran 4:5). "Fight against those who believe not in God nor in the Last Day, who... refuse allegiance to the True Faith from among those who have received the Book, until they humbly pay tribute out of hand." (Koran 9:29) Note: These verses distinguish between warfare against pagans, and against Jews and Christians.[17]
- "...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Koran 2:191); "fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (Koran 9:5); "murder them and treat them harshly" (Koran 9:123).
- "Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin." (Koran 69:30-37)
- "Strike off the heads of the disbelievers"; and after making a "wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives" (Koran 47:4).
- "Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers"; "smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them" (Koran 8:12; cp. 8:60).
- "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell - an evil refuge indeed" (Koran 9:73).
- "slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace..." (Koran 5:34).
- "for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods" (Koran 22:19-22)
Jesus tells us to pray for our enemies because they are going to hell. It reads as if Muslims are supposed to send them there.
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I found this also, I don't know if I should believe it or not. The site seemed neutral.
Muhammad, who himself had 11 wives[19], allowed marriage of up to four wives. (Koran 33:51)
- "Of women who seem good in your eyes, marry but two, or three, or four; and if ye still fear ye shall not act equitably, then one only."
Islam also allows sexual intercourse with one's slave maids and as many 'captive' women as one desires (Koran 4:3) - even if those women are married.
Part of the Koran, however, states that fornication and adultery are sin:
- "And go not nigh to fornication; surely it is an obscenity. And evil is the way." (Koran 17:32)
This would be a contradiction if true?
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05-01-2006, 4:08 PM
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marklewis
Joined on 04-28-2006
Posts 81
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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I and my Father are one.
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
Unless again this is the part of the bible you do not trust.
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05-01-2006, 5:08 PM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| marklewis wrote: | | Guide To Salvation wrote: | |
The sin not the sinner.
As far as Esau goes, I believe this is part of the bible that the Muslims follow? So if it is, that is the same God you serve, and now you have just doubted his love for his people. The bible does not state that God hated Esau before he was born. God said The elder would serve the younger. Now God does hate sin and that is what Esau did when he sold his birthright. That is what the Lord hates, the sin not the sinner. Keep in mind that God did bless Esau, still showing his love for him even when he was a sinner. Just like the bible says, for God shows his love for us in this. Even when we were still sinners He died for us. From our perspective, How could you as a human hate something you created, you would hate what they did not them.
Anyway, who does the God of the Qur'an love? For that matter who can be saved through the Qur'an?
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Here are some examples. According to the Holy Quran, the love of God is expressed and emphasized many times over, throughout the book. God loves: the charitable (2:195; 3:134); the righteous, those who fulfill obligations (3:76; 5:93); the steadfast (3:146); the good doers (3:148); those who trust Him (3:159); the benevolent (5:13); those who purify themselves (9:108); the equitable (5:42); the just (49:9); those who are clean (2:222); and those who fight in his cause united in one column, like bricks in one wall (61:4).
The ones that are saved are the ones that do as God asks, and repent their sins. You don't have to be perfect, but you do have to do your best. You have to pray, you have to fast, you have to be charitable, you have to believe in God, his angels, his prophets, that last day, the resurruction.
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05-01-2006, 5:10 PM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| marklewis wrote: | |
I do not believe that God will punish those who never heard about him. We are all accountable for what we know. So, I believe if a person of another faith other than christianity never heard of Jesus, then he will be accountable for what God has revealed to him personally. Prior to Jesus, that is the way it was. There are other nations in the bible that worshiped the God of Jews, but not necessarily temple worship just like the jews. God still loves them and does with them what He wills. I do believe that everyone living now will have the chance to hear and or see Jesus and make a choice about him. The Holy Spirit,(not Muhammad) is at work. By the way, the Holy spirit fell at Pentecost, that would disprove the theory that Muhammad was the Comforter? Never mind, that is part of the bible you do not believe. It would make it easy if you actually stated which of the 66 books you do not believe. Then I wouldn't have to waste my time siting them.
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In Islam, Muhammad (pbuh) is not the holy spirit, Angel Gabriel is. Jesus (pbuh) spoke of a spirit to come, not holy spirit. Other prophets in the bible are called spirits.
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05-01-2006, 5:17 PM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| marklewis wrote: | |
I just read this off of another site. Is this indeed what the Qur'an says?
Islam both allows and forbids murder and violence, depending on who is the recipient of the act.
Allowed:
- "Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme." (Koran 8:37)
- The Koran instructs not to make friendship with Jews and Christians (Koran 5:51) but to war against them: "When the Sacred Months are over, kill those who ascribe partners to God wheresoever ye find them; seize them, encompass them, and ambush them; then if they repent and observe prayer and pay the alms, let them go their way (Koran 4:5). "Fight against those who believe not in God nor in the Last Day, who... refuse allegiance to the True Faith from among those who have received the Book, until they humbly pay tribute out of hand." (Koran 9:29) Note: These verses distinguish between warfare against pagans, and against Jews and Christians.[17]
- "...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Koran 2:191); "fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (Koran 9:5); "murder them and treat them harshly" (Koran 9:123).
- "Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin." (Koran 69:30-37)
- "Strike off the heads of the disbelievers"; and after making a "wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives" (Koran 47:4).
- "Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers"; "smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them" (Koran 8:12; cp. 8:60).
- "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell - an evil refuge indeed" (Koran 9:73).
- "slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace..." (Koran 5:34).
- "for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods" (Koran 22:19-22)
Jesus tells us to pray for our enemies because they are going to hell. It reads as if Muslims are supposed to send them there.
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Read my Qur'an section. It proves (using the Qur'an) that the bible only tells Muhammad (pbuh) and Musims to only defend themselves.
The not taking Christians and Jews as friends is a translation error, I clearly refute that argument also in an article.
I refute most these in articles I've written under my Qur'an section. Take a few minutes and read it, you'll see that it is just missionary tactics to make Islam look bad.
Tarek
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05-01-2006, 5:23 PM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| marklewis wrote: | | marklewis wrote: | |
I found this also, I don't know if I should believe it or not. The site seemed neutral.
Muhammad, who himself had 11 wives[19], allowed marriage of up to four wives. (Koran 33:51)
- "Of women who seem good in your eyes, marry but two, or three, or four; and if ye still fear ye shall not act equitably, then one only."
Islam also allows sexual intercourse with one's slave maids and as many 'captive' women as one desires (Koran 4:3) - even if those women are married.
Part of the Koran, however, states that fornication and adultery are sin:
- "And go not nigh to fornication; surely it is an obscenity. And evil is the way." (Koran 17:32)
This would be a contradiction if true?
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Muhammad did have 11 wives, but there is a reason. Read the article, "Why was Muhammad a polygamist" in my Muhammad section.
The Qur'an does not say you can have sexual intercourse with your slaves, check the verse out yourself and talks about marriage only. Also, in the time of Muhammad (pbuh), people married even hundreds of women, 4 wives was actually setting a limit. In the bible, Solomon (pbuh) had 1000 wives and 600 concubines. Other prophets did also.
Missionaries always result to deseprate measure to try and make Islam look bad. Think about it, if they have to resort to lies, don't you think there is a reason?
Tarek
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05-01-2006, 5:34 PM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| marklewis wrote: | |
I and my Father are one.
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
Unless again this is the part of the bible you do not trust.
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I and the father are one is a classic verse that trinitarians take out of context. Jesus (pbuh) meant one in message.
I and my father are one."
This verse, however is quoted out of context. The complete passage, starting with John 10:23, reads as follows:
"And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one."
John 10:23-30
In divinity? In a holy "Trinity"? No! They are one in PURPOSE. Just as no one shall pluck them out of Jesus' hand, so too shall no one pluck them out of God's hand.
Need more proof? Then read:
"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one."
John 17:20-22
Is all of mankind also part of the "Trinity"?
Such terminology can be found in many other places, read for example:
"Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit,"
1 Corinthians 6:15-17
And also
"One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
Ephesians 4:6
And
"For as the (human) body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many."
1 Corinthians 12:12-14
Once we read the above verses and understand what the message was that Paul was trying to get across, then we can begin to understand his words in such places as
"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
Ephesians 4:4
"St. Paul" was speaking about Christian unity, not about a plurality of gods merged into one body. As we shall soon see, he was completely ignorant of where his teachings would later lead, and how decades later, they would be the foundations which would spawn the "Trinity" doctrine.
As for John 14:9
Well, what about the verse
"He that hath seen me hath seen the father."
Let us look at the context:
"Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?"
John 14:8-9
Philip wanted to see God with his own eyes, but this is impossible since no one can ever do ever do that. The Bible says:
"No man hath seen God at any time,"
John 1:18
"No man hath seen God at any time,"
1 John 4:12
So Jesus simply told him that his own actions and miracles should be a sufficient proof of the existence of God without God having to physically come down and let himself be seen every time someone is doubtful. This is equivalent to for example
- John 8:19: "Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also."
- John 12:44 "Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me."
- John 15:23 "He that hateth me hateth my Father also."
- Matthew 10:40-41 "He that receiveth you receiveth me (Jesus), and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward."
If we want to insist that when Philip saw Jesus (pbuh), he had actually physically seen God "the Father" because Jesus "is" the father and both are one "Trinity," and Jesus is the "incarnation" of God, then this will force us to conclude that John 1:18, 1 John 4:12, ..etc. are all lies.
Well, is Philip the only one who ever "saw the father"? Let us read:
"Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father."
John 6:46
Who is this who "is of God" and had seen the Father you ask? Let us once again ask the Bible:
"He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."
John 8:47.
And
"Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God"
3 John 1:11.
Have all people who have done good also physically seen God?
In "The New Catholic Encyclopedia" (Bearing the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur, indicating official approval) we get a glimpse of how the concept of the Trinity was not introduced into Christianity until close to four hundred years after Jesus (pbuh):
".......It is difficult in the second half of the 20th century to offer a clear, objective and straightforward account of the revelation, doctrinal evolution, and theological elaboration of the Mystery of the trinity. Trinitarian discussion, Roman Catholic as well as other, present a somewhat unsteady silhouette. Two things have happened. There is the recognition on the part of exegetes and Biblical theologians, including a constantly growing number of Roman Catholics, that one should not speak of Trinitarianism in the New Testament without serious qualification. There is also the closely parallel recognition on the part of historians of dogma and systematic theologians that when one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century. It was only then that what might be called the definitive Trinitarian dogma 'One God in three Persons' became thoroughly assimilated into Christian life and thought ... it was the product of 3 centuries of doctrinal development" (emphasis added).
"The New Catholic Encyclopedia" Volume XIV, p. 295.
They admit it!. Jesus' twelve apostles lived and died never having heard of any "Trinity" !
Did Jesus leave his closest and dearest followers so completely and utterly baffled and lost that they never even realized the "true" nature of God? Did he leave them in such black darkness that neither they nor their children, nor yet their children's children would ever come to recognize the "true" nature of the One they are to worship? Do we really want to allege that Jesus was so thoroughly incompetent in the discharge of his duties that he left his followers in such utter chaos that it would take them fully three centuries after his departure to finally piece together the nature of the One whom they are to worship? Why did Jesus never, even once, just say "God, the Holy Ghost and I are three Persons in one Trinity. Worship all of us as one"? If he had only chosen to make just one such explicit statement to them he could have relieved Christianity of centuries of bitter disputes, division, and animosity.
Top Harpur writes in his book "For Christ's Sake":
"What is most embarrassing for the church is the difficulty of proving any of these statements of dogma from the new Testament documents. You simply cannot find the doctrine of the Trinity set out anywhere in the Bible. St. Paul has the highest view of Jesus' role and person, but nowhere does he call him God. Nor does Jesus himself anywhere explicitly claim to be the second person in the Trinity, wholly equal to his heavenly Father. As a pious Jew, he would have been shocked and offended by such an Idea....(this is) in itself bad enough. But there is worse to come. This research has lead me to believe that the great majority of regular churchgoers are, for all practical purposes, tritheists. That is, they profess to believe in one God, but in reality they worship three.."
The Encyclopaedia Britannica states under the heading "Trinity":
"in Christian doctrine, the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament,… The Council of Nicaea in 325 stated the crucial formula for that doctrine in its confession that the Son is 'of the same substance [homoousios] as the Father,' even though it said very little about the Holy Spirit. Over the next half century, Athanasius defended and refined the Nicene formula, and, by the end of the 4th century, under the leadership of Basil of Caesarea, Gregory of Nyssa, and Gregory of Nazianzus (the Cappadocian Fathers), the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since."
So, yes, Muslims can believe in this verse, just as long as it's kept in context. Neither of these verses show a trinity.
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05-01-2006, 5:40 PM
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marklewis
Joined on 04-28-2006
Posts 81
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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I do not know if they are lieing or not. But Muhammad was alive after Jesus right? So Jesus said that a man should leave his father and mother and the two shall become one. Polygamy as far as a jew or a christian is concerned should have stopped with the Gospels. According to you, Muhammad had respect for Jesus and his teachings. Or is this one of them that Islam doesn't agree with?
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