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Debates
Started by marklewis at 05-01-2006 5:42 PM. Topic has 169 replies.
  
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 05-01-2006, 5:59 PM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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 marklewis wrote: |
| marklewis wrote: | | I do not know if they are lieing or not. But Muhammad was alive after Jesus right? So Jesus said that a man should leave his father and mother and the two shall become one. Polygamy as far as a jew or a christian is concerned should have stopped with the Gospels. According to you, Muhammad had respect for Jesus and his teachings. Or is this one of them that Islam doesn't agree with? |
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I don't think they are trying to make it look bad, if this is true, it does look bad. The voice box of Allah is saying that Allah is saying you can have up to four wives in one verse and than not to fornicate in another.
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Jesus (pbuh) never ended polygamy. What you quoted has nothing to do with polygamy. Also, what does having four wives have to do with fornication? Fornication is sex outside the marriage. Also, the Qur'an strongly indicates one wifes is best, but you can have up to four and no more.
Tarek
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05-01-2006, 9:40 PM
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marklewis
Joined on 04-28-2006
Posts 81
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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You would have to ask the second third or fourth wife what they think about it. When Jesus came He stated that marriage is one man and one women, then Muhammad came. So, If Jesus defined marriage as one man and one woman, the Muhammad's second wife could not be apart of his marriage. Hence fornication. Unless of course again Islam does not believe this aspect of Jesus' teachings?
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05-02-2006, 6:14 AM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| marklewis wrote: | |
You asked me to show you in the bible where Jesus said I am God. I showed you and just like the people in the story, you stone it. Remember, they tried to stone him. I wonder why they couldn't. Jesus is God in the flesh. Emanuel. Mary was a virgin. Joseph was going to let her go before the angel came and told him not to. She could have been killed for that. Joseph was will to believe her and the angel. Parthenos.
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I proved to you that you took those verses out of context. The response was crystal clear. Neither of those verses prove that Jesus (pbuh) is God. Muslims also believe Jesus (pbuh) was born of a virgin. As for Emmanuel, that wasn't a prophecy about Jesus (pbuh) I also proved that earlier above. Emmanuel wasn't born of a virgin, it was a mistranslation, he was born of a "young woman". Here it is again:
From: The Voice: Biblical and Theological Resources for Growing Christians.
 ha‘almah, a feminine noun with a definite article, "the young woman." This noun has traditionally been translated as "virgin," but research reveals that more likely it means "a young woman of marriageable age" (i.e., old enough to bear a child) without any specific indication of whether or not she is a virgin. This is reflected in most modern translations.
If anything, it is you that is like the Romans Jesus (pbuh) spoke of in the apocryphal writing, the Revelations of Peter, when he told Peter that they deaf and blind. I present you with clear refutations, and you deny them, because you are so blinded by your beliefs. Here is another refutation for the verses you presented earlier:
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all [1]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and the Father are one.
31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him,
32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods'?
35 If he called them `gods,' to whom the word of God came and the Scripture cannot be broken--
36 what about the one whom the Father set ; Apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, `I am God's Son'?
One thing that Trintarians point out with this verse are the words "I and the Father are one", then later we can see that the Jews thought that Jesus was claiming to be God. Therefore Trintarians claim that Jesus was claiming to be God and then the Jews got very upset about his claim. But on closer inspection of this part of scripture reveals the complete opposite. The irony here is that Jesus said earlier in verse 29, My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all and after the accusation, Jesus then reminds them of the usage of the word "gods" in the Old Testament.
Jesus was actually referring to Psalms 82:6 (English-NIV) which reads:
"I said, `You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'
After Jesus reminds the Jews of this, he then asks them:
..."Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's son'?" (John 10:36 ).
Again this scripture reinforces the truth that Jesus is God's Son and we can see that he certainly did not claim to be the Almighty God, rather he said that he was the Son of God. If you use this verse to say that Jesus is the Almighty God then you are making the same error that the Jews made and you are ignoring what Jesus said in defense of this accusation.
The following scripture repeats the fact that the Father and Jesus are one. But it also says that we are one and yet no one is saying that we are God are they.
John 17:21 (English-NIV)
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
I don't know how much more evidence I can provide you to refute this verse, it is clearly not speaking of a trinity, or even claiming that Jesus (pbuh) is God. The problem with Christians is that they accept blind faith as answers. The Bible never taught a trinity, and never will, yet Christians were born with the concept ingrained in their minds and they refuse to open their eyes to what the scriptures really teach. Just like they blindly accepted Paul, even though he has a history of persecuting Jesus (pbuh) followers. Also, he called the apostles not apright and hypocrites. Keep in Mind that Paul never met Jesus (pbuh) and his teachings went against that of Jesus (pbuh). Jesus (pbuh) said he didn't come to abolish the law, he was a devout Jew, he was Kosher, circumsized... Paul ended all those. Remember what Jesus (pbuh) said in Matt 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."
Material below in blue From: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/corpus-paul/20051130/005556.html
Turning to I Corinthians, Given finds Paul to be
cunning in two particular places, I Cor 1-4 and
9:19-23. In the former, he tells his addressees that
the only wisdom that matters is God's wisdom rather
than human wisdom (I Cor 1:18-25), only then to
present himself as the conduit of true spiritual
wisdom which they can't hope to attain without him (I
Cor 2:6-3:4). Given suggests that Paul is claiming to
have a "secret and hidden wisdom of God" (I Cor 2:7)
available only to the privileged -- which would make
him as bad as the gnostics he just finished bashing
(in I Cor 1:18-25). Paul thus makes the rules and
breaks them (see pp 95-103).
Jehovah's Witneses are deceieved by a group called "The Watchtower Organization." They too claim that they were chosen by God and had "secret and hidden Wisdom". They too present themsleves as the conduit of true spirtual wisdom. They have over 6 million followers worldwide. Yet, most Chrsitians know they are false because of their shady history, must like Paul. Also, they made Prophecies that didn't come to be (as Jesus (pbuh) warned of false prophets) just as Paul did when he predicted the following:
1 Thes 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Looks like Paul made a false prophecy (the sign of a false prophet.)
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05-02-2006, 3:15 PM
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marklewis
Joined on 04-28-2006
Posts 81
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| Guide To Salvation wrote: | | marklewis wrote: | |
You asked me to show you in the bible where Jesus said I am God. I showed you and just like the people in the story, you stone it. Remember, they tried to stone him. I wonder why they couldn't. Jesus is God in the flesh. Emanuel. Mary was a virgin. Joseph was going to let her go before the angel came and told him not to. She could have been killed for that. Joseph was will to believe her and the angel. Parthenos.
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I proved to you that you took those verses out of context. The response was crystal clear. Neither of those verses prove that Jesus (pbuh) is God. Muslims also believe Jesus (pbuh) was born of a virgin. As for Emmanuel, that wasn't a prophecy about Jesus (pbuh) I also proved that earlier above. Emmanuel wasn't born of a virgin, it was a mistranslation, he was born of a "young woman". Here it is again:
From: The Voice: Biblical and Theological Resources for Growing Christians.
ha‘almah, a feminine noun with a definite article, "the young woman." This noun has traditionally been translated as "virgin," but research reveals that more likely it means "a young woman of marriageable age" (i.e., old enough to bear a child) without any specific indication of whether or not she is a virgin. This is reflected in most modern translations. If anything, it is you that is like the Romans Jesus (pbuh) spoke of in the apocryphal writing, the Revelations of Peter, when he told Peter that they deaf and blind. I present you with clear refutations, and you deny them, because you are so blinded by your beliefs. Here is another refutation for the verses you presented earlier:
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all [1]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and the Father are one.
31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him,
32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods'?
35 If he called them `gods,' to whom the word of God came and the Scripture cannot be broken--
36 what about the one whom the Father set ; Apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, `I am God's Son'?
One thing that Trintarians point out with this verse are the words "I and the Father are one", then later we can see that the Jews thought that Jesus was claiming to be God. Therefore Trintarians claim that Jesus was claiming to be God and then the Jews got very upset about his claim. But on closer inspection of this part of scripture reveals the complete opposite. The irony here is that Jesus said earlier in verse 29, My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all and after the accusation, Jesus then reminds them of the usage of the word "gods" in the Old Testament.
Jesus was actually referring to Psalms 82:6 (English-NIV) which reads:
"I said, `You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'
After Jesus reminds the Jews of this, he then asks them:
..."Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's son'?" (John 10:36 ).
Again this scripture reinforces the truth that Jesus is God's Son and we can see that he certainly did not claim to be the Almighty God, rather he said that he was the Son of God. If you use this verse to say that Jesus is the Almighty God then you are making the same error that the Jews made and you are ignoring what Jesus said in defense of this accusation.
The following scripture repeats the fact that the Father and Jesus are one. But it also says that we are one and yet no one is saying that we are God are they.
John 17:21 (English-NIV)
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
I don't know how much more evidence I can provide you to refute this verse, it is clearly not speaking of a trinity, or even claiming that Jesus (pbuh) is God. The problem with Christians is that they accept blind faith as answers. The Bible never taught a trinity, and never will, yet Christians were born with the concept ingrained in their minds and they refuse to open their eyes to what the scriptures really teach. Just like they blindly accepted Paul, even though he has a history of persecuting Jesus (pbuh) followers. Also, he called the apostles not apright and hypocrites. Keep in Mind that Paul never met Jesus (pbuh) and his teachings went against that of Jesus (pbuh). Jesus (pbuh) said he didn't come to abolish the law, he was a devout Jew, he was Kosher, circumsized... Paul ended all those. Remember what Jesus (pbuh) said in Matt 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."
Material below in blue From: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/corpus-paul/20051130/005556.html
Turning to I Corinthians, Given finds Paul to be
cunning in two particular places, I Cor 1-4 and
9:19-23. In the former, he tells his addressees that
the only wisdom that matters is God's wisdom rather
than human wisdom (I Cor 1:18-25), only then to
present himself as the conduit of true spiritual
wisdom which they can't hope to attain without him (I
Cor 2:6-3:4). Given suggests that Paul is claiming to
have a "secret and hidden wisdom of God" (I Cor 2:7)
available only to the privileged -- which would make
him as bad as the gnostics he just finished bashing
(in I Cor 1:18-25). Paul thus makes the rules and
breaks them (see pp 95-103).
Jehovah's Witneses are deceieved by a group called "The Watchtower Organization." They too claim that they were chosen by God and had "secret and hidden Wisdom". They too present themsleves as the conduit of true spirtual wisdom. They have over 6 million followers worldwide. Yet, most Chrsitians know they are false because of their shady history, must like Paul. Also, they made Prophecies that didn't come to be (as Jesus (pbuh) warned of false prophets) just as Paul did when he predicted the following:
1 Thes 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Looks like Paul made a false prophecy (the sign of a false prophet.)
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Obviously we disagree. Your arguments are no better that mine. Jesus said I and my father are one. If I say that you and me are one on this web site, that would be true, but we are obviously two very different people with different beliefs. But we are not God either. Jesus was born of a virgin. In the bible Mary says that She has never know a man. Unless of course this is part of the bible you do not believe? Luke uses parthenos, not the ha almah. Isiah used Ha almah, and when the translation was to Greek the translators believed Isiah to mean a strickter form of Ha almah. Parthenos. 3rd century BC.(Ha alma also could mean a married women.) Then Luke, the Great Physician very educated, probubly even talked to Mary, no doubt. He uses parthenos (spelling forgive me) of all the words he had at his disposal. The only way Jesus could be perfect is if God were his Father. Now me and my son, we are not one. We are indeed father and son as were me and my dad. Believe me, as much as me and my dad are alike, we live very different lives. Though, Jesus and His Father are exactly one. Just as he stated in red letters.
I don't think this prophesy has been fullfilled yet. Part of my belief lies in the fact that Paul suffered for his beliefs in Jesus. I know you probubly don't accept this part of the bible but Paul did see Jesus on the Road to Damascus. I don't think I need to quote acts, I am sure you know it, the fact is that you don't believe it. You put more faith in things that refute the parts of the bible that Muhammad forgot to include in the Qur'an than you do in the fact that the bible is true.
As far as Secret wisdom, I am sure there are things that you share with people that they do not know and can't understand. This would be because God has shared things with you that He hasn't shared with others. That is not unbelievable. Now this thing in blue about Corinthians. Man if you actually read that and think Paul was being pridefull you are not discerning in correctly. Paul is teaching them that He is nothing. The most important theme in those verses is about Jesus Christ and him crucified. They were following after man. Boasting who had the better teacher and Paul said they should be following Jesus' teachings. He was not saying He had a special secret wisdom, Paul was saying that Jesus was the Wisdom. I don't know where you got that but of all the things you posted it is by far the craziest. I don't know if you researched it but you lose a lot of credibility after this one.
How does Islam work when Jesus said he was the way to the Father? He didn't mention any of the things that you mention we must do to get to heaven through Islam. He said He was the way.
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05-02-2006, 9:30 PM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| marklewis wrote: | | Guide To Salvation wrote: | | marklewis wrote: | |
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Obviously we disagree. Your arguments are no better that mine. Jesus said I and my father are one. If I say that you and me are one on this web site, that would be true, but we are obviously two very different people with different beliefs. But we are not God either. Jesus was born of a virgin. In the bible Mary says that She has never know a man. Unless of course this is part of the bible you do not believe? Luke uses parthenos, not the ha almah. Isiah used Ha almah, and when the translation was to Greek the translators believed Isiah to mean a strickter form of Ha almah. Parthenos. 3rd century BC.(Ha alma also could mean a married women.) Then Luke, the Great Physician very educated, probubly even talked to Mary, no doubt. He uses parthenos (spelling forgive me) of all the words he had at his disposal. The only way Jesus could be perfect is if God were his Father. Now me and my son, we are not one. We are indeed father and son as were me and my dad. Believe me, as much as me and my dad are alike, we live very different lives. Though, Jesus and His Father are exactly one. Just as he stated in red letters.
I don't think this prophesy has been fullfilled yet. Part of my belief lies in the fact that Paul suffered for his beliefs in Jesus. I know you probubly don't accept this part of the bible but Paul did see Jesus on the Road to Damascus. I don't think I need to quote acts, I am sure you know it, the fact is that you don't believe it. You put more faith in things that refute the parts of the bible that Muhammad forgot to include in the Qur'an than you do in the fact that the bible is true.
As far as Secret wisdom, I am sure there are things that you share with people that they do not know and can't understand. This would be because God has shared things with you that He hasn't shared with others. That is not unbelievable. Now this thing in blue about Corinthians. Man if you actually read that and think Paul was being pridefull you are not discerning in correctly. Paul is teaching them that He is nothing. The most important theme in those verses is about Jesus Christ and him crucified. They were following after man. Boasting who had the better teacher and Paul said they should be following Jesus' teachings. He was not saying He had a special secret wisdom, Paul was saying that Jesus was the Wisdom. I don't know where you got that but of all the things you posted it is by far the craziest. I don't know if you researched it but you lose a lot of credibility after this one.
How does Islam work when Jesus said he was the way to the Father? He didn't mention any of the things that you mention we must do to get to heaven through Islam. He said He was the way.
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Muslims also believe that Jesus (pbuh) was born of a virgin, but this does not prove he is god. Consider Melchizedek, the Bible tells us about him the following:
Hebrew 7:1For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; 2To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; 3Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. 4Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
So, are you saying Melchizedek is also God? I mean, he outdid Jesus (pbuh), not only did he not have a father, but he didn't even have a mother, nor did he have a beginning, nor an end. So you can't assume Jesus (pbuh) is God or the son of God because he was born of a virgin. Muslims believe this also, but it's just another of God's miracles, nothing more.
You've got it wrong again. Jesus (pbuh) was sent by God as a prophet with God's message, so they are obviously one. It would be more like Condolezza Rice saying the Iran, "Bush won't let you continue with your defiance, and neither will I, Me and Bush are one." That is a true statement, even though they're obvious not morphed into one. They are one because they share in the same cause, as Jesus (pbuh) as a messenger and God do. Moses (pbuh) could have said the same thing and have been correct, he had Gods message, so Moses (pbuh) and God were also one in that same respect.
You can't say "Luke probably even talked to Mary" that is conjecture and wouldn't hold up. You'd get laughed out of court with an argument like that, so it makes no sense to even make such an argument. In Islam, all the prophets were perfect, a part of the Bible Muslims will reject are any that degrade the Prophets, such as Noah (pbuh) passing out naked after the flood, or Lot (pbuh) being seduced and raped by his daughters. No Muslims would ever believe such a thing, and take it as a later insertion, just as Jeremiah 8:8 states in the bible. You still haven't given me your take on that verse by the way. Also, it's been proven that the bible has had hundreds of later insertions that should not be there. Just buy any newer translation and you'll see the footnotes that state such, including two accounts of Jesus (pbuh) resurruction.
You're argument for Jesus (pbuh) and his father being one are weak. As I said, they are one in purpose. They had the same exact message, because Jesus (pbuh) was chosen by God to convey that message. They are exactly one when it comes to the message and nothing else. Why would Jesus (pbuh) say you can't pluck them from my fathers hand, you can't pluck them from mine, the Father and I are one? Why not just say, The Father and I are one and nothing else? Because he meant they were one in purpose. It is so simple, but Trinitarians insist on taking it out of context to valify their beliefs, which have a shaky foundation at best, if any at all.
Paul could have just as easily have been deceived by satan. I mean, who else would want to destroy Jesus (pbuh) message more? He ended the law, he made all foods good, he ended circumcision. Consider this verse:
Genesis 17:13 "Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant."
This is an order to Abraham (pbuh) directly from God. What does everlasting mean? It means eternal duration. Forever. How then could Paul come and end this? That is exactly why Jesus (pbuh) true apostles became angry at paul. Paul also said that the world would end in his lifetime. You can't say this is a prophecy that is yet to be fulfilled since Paul is already long dead. It didn't end in his life time, therefore, he made a false prophecy and failed the Bibles acid test. He is a proven false prophet by the Bible standard. Besides, Muhammad (pbuh) was also persecuted, so you can't judge if someone is real because they were persecuted, because by your standard, you then must also accept Muhammad (pbuh).
According to the Bible, in 1 Chor 14:33:
For God is not the author of confusion
So you can't argue for secret widom. Jesus (pbuh) said clearly, keep the law and sell all that you have. That is two of the main tenets of Islam: We keep the law, and we are required to give to the poor. Jesus (pbuh) sure didn't teach he was God. I feel sorry for people who base their eternity on Bible verses taken out of context. And speaking of research, most your arguments are mere conjectures, nothing concrete. The quote in blue is most difinetely relevant. I never said he is being prideful, I said he is making the same case that the watchtower organization is making today. He said that he is the only conduit between God and man. The Watchtower claims the same exact thing today. Not only that, Jehovah's witnesses were badly persecuted during WW2 in Germany. Let's do a logic analysis:
You believe Paul because he says he's a conduit between man and God, You believe Paul because he was persecuted, therefore, Paul must be sincere.
The watchtower organization say they are the conduit between man and God, Witnesses were persecuted in Germany and other times in history, including the organization, therefore, by your logic, they too must be sincere.
This is your exact argument, go back and read it. Also, I researched nothing wrong, that is exactly what Paul claimed, and it is the same claim the watchtower makes today. You are the one that takes verses out of context in order to make your beliefs valid, everything I say is concrete and one be acceptable if presented in a court like setting. You're arguments of "I believe" or "he probably" or "Me and my son" would never hold up. The judge would probably give you a guilty verdict, and ask you to not waste his time. Do you seriously believe you've made a single strong argument? I promise you, if you go back and read it with eyes wide open, you'll see how weak your presentation has been. I've supported all my arguments with verses and logic, you've only provided assumptions and suppositions.
Jesus (pbuh) just like every other prophet is indeed the way to the father. If you follow any messenger of god, you're going to end up on the right path to the father. That is why he sent them, to lead you to him. Jesus suggested fasting, prayer, selling what you have and giving your belongings away. These are all main Islamic tenets. Also, as you can read in both the Gospels of Matthey and Mark, Jesus (pbuh) would fall with his face to the ground (Matthew 26:39, Mark 14:23), like Muslims. Jesus (pbuh) also greeted with Peace be with you John (20:19), like Muslims do. I could keep going, but I think you get the point. You still have yet to show me where Jesus (pbuh) clearly claims to be God. You'd think a teaching so important would be laid out clearly for all to believe. I want one clear verse where Jesus (pbuh) claims to be God.
Tarek
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05-04-2006, 6:58 PM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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Well, you're right, none can come to the father except through Jesus (pbuh), but only in his time. During Moses (pbuh) time none could come to the father except through him, and same with David (pbuh) and Muhammad(pbuh) and all the other prophets. You see, they had the message of salvation. You had to follow them to find your way to God, because God sent them to lead his followers to the straight path.
Muhammad (pbuh) wouldn't be in the Bible, because he came after Jesus (pbuh). Just like Jesus (pbuh) wasn't in the books before by name, but only through prophecy. There are prophecies of Muhammad (pbuh) in the bible.
Here are a couple of links:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/isaiah_42.htm
http://www.answering-christianity.com/prediction.htm
http://www.answering-christianity.com/aramaic_society.htm
http://www.answering-christianity.com/10000.htm
http://www.answering-christianity.com/isaiah_vision.htm
There are more if you need them. It's a lot, but read it before you comment. By the way, when Jesus (pbuh) returns for his second coming, according to the Qur'an, he will judge by the law of the Qur'an.
You have to understand, Islam does not deny Christianity or Judiasm, the Gospels or the Torah, Jesus (pbuh) or any of the prophets of before (peace be upon them all). Muhammad (pbuh) is just the last in the long string of prophets, with the final revelations. You can find all the previous books in the Qur'an. The Qur'an was revealed to confirm the previous revelations, to tell people what parts are true. The bible is corrupted. There are thousands of insertions. This has been proven and all scholars believe it. Just read the book 'Who Wrote the Bible' by Friedman. There are many more books I could suggest. Also, just look at any newer Bible translation such as NIV, NLV, NRSV... check the footnotes. There are hundreds of omitted verses with the footnote "This was not found in the earliest manuscripts", meaning someone must have added them later. I'm not here to try and change peoples religion, I'm here to help them complete it. You must accept all the prophets. It's like trying to pass an inspection using an old code book, rather than the newer one with all the proper guidelines.
Tarek
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05-05-2006, 9:19 PM
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marklewis
Joined on 04-28-2006
Posts 81
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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Well so sorry to rest of the people in the world at that time. Or at any of those times. You see the great thing about the real God of the bible is that He is the same, always. Never changes. I am having trouble believing the Qur'an. Just on the few things I have heard you talk about. Here is something. The Qur'an teaches that Jesus didn't die on the cross but the Father took his spirit just prior to dieing? Why would Jesus tell his disciples that He would die several times. To use your logic, why wouldn't Jesus just say, Hey, don't worry, it won't hurt me a bit. Besides the Father is going to save me just prior to dieing.
Another is the 11 wives thing. If the Qur'an limits you to four wives, how come Muhammad gets to break that Law?
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05-05-2006, 9:33 PM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| marklewis wrote: | |
Well so sorry to rest of the people in the world at that time. Or at any of those times. You see the great thing about the real God of the bible is that He is the same, always. Never changes. I am having trouble believing the Qur'an. Just on the few things I have heard you talk about. Here is something. The Qur'an teaches that Jesus didn't die on the cross but the Father took his spirit just prior to dieing? Why would Jesus tell his disciples that He would die several times. To use your logic, why wouldn't Jesus just say, Hey, don't worry, it won't hurt me a bit. Besides the Father is going to save me just prior to dieing.
Another is the 11 wives thing. If the Qur'an limits you to four wives, how come Muhammad gets to break that Law?
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The God of the Qur'an never changed, it is the trinity of Christianity that changed. Keep in mind, the Jews and Old Testament came before Christianity.
Jews- No Trinity Christianity- Trinity Islam-No Trinity
Jews- No Original Sin Christianity-original sin Islam-No original sin
Jews- No atonement Christianity-Atonement Islam-No atonement
Jews-God had no son Christianity-God had a son Islam- No son
Jews-Kosher Christianity-not kosher slam-Kosher
Jews-circumcision required Christianity-not required Islam-required
So who's God changed again?
Where did Jesus (pbuh) say he would die? what verse? I recall he said he would leave, but I don't remember him saying he would die.
The Qur'an says that Muhammad (pbuh) was the exception as an example. In Islam, Muhammads actions are examples, so he married 11 for various reasons. Read the article "Why was Muhammad a polygamist" in my Muhammad section.
I notice you've ignored many of my questions and arguments. Each time you seem to get stuck, you jump on a new topic. For example, what does Jeremiah 8:8 mean? That is one question you haven't answered amongst many. And how can you claim your God doesn't change when he clearly did. Why weren't the Jews taught about a trinity or original sin, or atonement, or the son? Did God decide to wait thousands of years before he "loved the world" enough to send his son? Did he hate all the people that lived prior to the atonement? Should the verse really read "For God so loved the world from this point on that he gave his only son..."? Why didn't Jesus (pbuh) come right out and say "I am God"? Why is there no teaching whatsoever in the bible that teaches a trinity? You can twist verses all you want to teach Jesus (pbuh) is God, but there isn't a single verse the would lead someone to conclude a trinity. You'd have to really use your imagination for that. If there is, where can I find it?
Tarek
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05-06-2006, 5:51 AM
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Guide To Salvation
Joined on 04-07-2006
Posts 110
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Re: Debate challenge Rejected
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| marklewis wrote: | |
That is nice, only Muhammad is the exception. Convinient for Him I guess. If he set a precident, why did he then say only four. Did he marry 11 first or after the Qur'an was written. I have read something you have written. It said that if one part of the document was currupted, then it all is. Does this go for everything excluding the Qur'an, or could the Qur'an possibly fall into that category.
I'll do my best to answer all your questions in a resonable amount of time. It is just so hard because everything you come up with leads me in a number of directions. Why don't we just start with Jer. 8:8. And then I really need to get into these old testament prophecies about Muhammad. I don't know it all and I will never admit to that. What appears to be me getting stuck is actually me getting bored with the discussion. No disrespect, but we can only disagree so much on a point before it becomes mute. At any rate, lets go to Jeremiah 8:8...
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Just a couple things real quick. Muhammad (pbuh) was not married to all 11 at once. He stayed married to his first wife alone, was devoted and loyal until her death. He never stopped speaking of her for the rest of his life. Each of his marriages signified a precident. For example, he married one woman because her husband died and she had to body to take care of her, He married a Jewish woman, He married a Christian woman... You see, that way Muslims know who they can marry and who they can't. And to prove there is no problem with the Qur'an read chapter 33 verse 50, which shows the Qur'an gives specialy exemptions to the prophet only. Notice also that verse 52 of that same verse give the Prophet some restricitons, such as he wasn't allowed to divorce, or take wives that didn't serve as an example.
As for the Qur'ans corruption, consider this verse:
Qur'an 4:82 "Will they no think about this Qur'an? If it had been from anyone other than God, they would have found much inconsistency in it."
So yes, it applies to the Qur'an, but you won't find any corruption there. Now let me ask you, if I found errors and prove of corruption in the bible, would you agree it applies to the whole book?
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